Yellow Flat Coats? Controversial

Welcome back Ramble - nice to hear from you again.

In reply to Chatham Hill Retrievers (TM) you are sadly mistaken when you assume that I am a breeder of flatcoated retrievers. I have kept flatcoats for many years, but I have bred only one litter of all black flatcoats from my bitch who was considered outstanding (not by me but other experienced people). My litter was born into a domestic household and had the best possible start in life. The breeding was done carefully, decided on in association with a person who has over 45 years of experience with the flatcoat - someone who works, shows and was an International judge - both show and working. She in turn gained her knowledge and was in a long partnership with one of the most respected people in the flatcoated retriever world. I take no fees or earn anything from my flatcoats and I don't understand you when you talk about a "marketing advantage".

In relation to the American and English cocker, both of them are affected by "Rage syndrome" and on balance, the American probably has more problems generally than the English or working cocker - and yes I know the differences in the spaniel breeds. In my opinion the American is the most extreme and is probably the worse spaniel to choose as a cross - mind you it is very popular with the American public.

You talk about spaying and neutering being modern day culling - what a load of utter tripe. I beliieve America neuter far more routinely than Britain (and at a very young age) - this is done far more for convenience than anything else. If there was not a programme of spay and neuter for pet dogs there would be an even worse unwanted dog population than there is now - and it is bad enough now. So please get real.

$$$$$$$$$$$ ?£££££££££££ , makes no difference, nor does the amount of money your OH makes,

Whats that got to do with anything, greed is greed, it comes in wealth as well as poor.

You go on about creating a new breed, that is healthier, , yet you are breeding miniature dogs two different breeds that are completey opposite of each other.

What generation are you on, F1, F2, F`3??

How far down the line of your hybrid vigour have you got, what age have your hybrids lived to, have you eradicated any /all of the ailments of either breed in your " designer pets"

Why would you think a mix of two very energetic breeds would make a better pet than either or?

Did you claim somewhere they dont shed :?


Do you health test each of your breeds for genetic problems before you breed them together, or to each other,

Or do you just live in cuckoo land and beleive all the rubbish you spout


Don't know about people on your side of the pond, but my guess is they pretty much are the same as here,,,,,,

They fall into two categories, knowledgeable and gullible, and the gullible enable people like you to continue.


Have to agree with Ramble on this, if I wanted a flattie, I want one that looks like a flattie, not a golden retriever .

Did not work!!!!

Again People .... problem reading so here I repeat myself....


Again firing off bullets based on what. Stereotypes you pin on people who don't see eye to eye with your own ideologies. You really need to take a walk and let off the steam.

The Duck Tolling and the Boykin and the Xsolos, Cane Corso, Murray River Curlies etc etc are all relatively new breeds. Why not A Chatham Hill Retriever. Does it offend you for some one to take that on? I wonder what our ancestors went through in the creation of their dogs. You don't think these new breeds or any existing breed just appeared one day through divine intervention do you? They were created by the very means you seem to take issue with. They were created from crossing other dogs. Therefore, its safe to say that the future of dogs is still evolving. I love the pure bred histories of many dogs, I despise the creation of some Fad breeds with awful breed characteristics that are more harmful than good. But the history behind many is also intriguing.

Does that answer your question?

I'm not here to convince you or anyone else about your choices made as being detrimental to the pure breeds. If you're a part of the circles within the dog fancy then you already helped convinced the public about that, I have no work to do in that regard.

YES!!! THE PET MARKET. Because believe it or not that is what drives the demands for more of all our dogs. THE PET MARKET is what requires a longer living healthier companion. And ultimately the pet populations may even be the saving grace for many pure breeds in need of a shot in the arm for diversity.

Your Viszla are actually a good choice for a possible outcross to help diversify the gene pool for the FCR. Its actually already in the planning from our perspective using Long Haired Vizsla. Along with some Black German Short hair Pointer and Long haired Weimaraner. The possibilities are endless. But the results will likely be in a better place than the parents genetically. ****This Applies to Goldens too as far as a Long Haired Vizsla outcross.***

*** I don't know what the situation is like as far as diversity for your Hungarian WireHaired Vizsla. But, I'm going to guess that with a small breeding population and possibly 380 dogs registered annually in the British KC, I'm willing to bet the Diversity for the breed is about on par with the Goldens or FCR for that matter, if there has been a fair amount of the status quo practice of close line breeding, a small founding population, same sire effect and again... the closed registry to help keep it going****

We've seen what the status quo's idea of ethical breeding has brought the situation of our pure breeds. I think along with a demanding public, that its time to look elsewhere since for the generations the efforts of the staus quo have done more damage than good for dogdom.

Its also evident the Hybrid "Novelty" as you say it has eclipsed the Pure bred dog fancy for the moment. And during this time it would be an excellent opportunity for the Purists to fix the problems they actually caused by revising their methods and ultimately using the distraction afforded them by the high demand for "designer dogs". To start doing things that are truly beneficial for their chosen breeds.

Here I repeat myself again for those who have not read previous posts...

"If I were breeding to supply the Show and Trial markets it would be a really sad road to travel by continuing the current practices of Line breeding and inbreeding."

Again my point here isn't that its my job to convince you and your circle of friends here that what practices you condone are wrong.

It's your job to convince the public that those practices in light of modern scientific evidence is right.

And since the light is now shining on you and yours. Its time to show the majority public where I stand that even with all the damning proof against you and yours. That continuing to do things according to the status quo is somehow going to magically reverse the damage done.

Good luck with that.

In about two decades let me know how that went for you.

ermm no their not - 'newish' (but not that new) to the country maybe - but there are records of this breed, from well over two thousand years ago!

Do you forget that - that was done many a year ago, and done for a purpose - not to line breeders pockets, but to create a dog/compaion that could work alone side us humans. Main word being bred for a PURPOSE!

well maybe you should do some more research on their histories before making untrue statements ;-)

You dont actually have a clue what your taking about.. How do your 'clients' know their getting a dog that lives longer than that of a pure breed.. I mean cross breeding is pot luck how do you as the breeder know that yourself. The pet market/general public is to blame for the supplying of puppies from unethical, selfish, thoughtless breeders..Thats all!

Many ethical breeders have been doing this for sometime - Its just a shame the uneducated public would rather go out on a whim and buy from the nearest BYB - who will sell take their money before pups are even born. who care about creating something new for themselve rather than helping the pure breeds that are in a hard place - that they so often moan about.

How can you say such things after showing your dogs yourself, and selling to working home - and as someone from a family of genetics I would have thought you would have known how useful line breeding can be - when done correctly. ;-)

Let me see....In Great britain the # 2 most popular breed coming in behind the Labrador is the English Cocker Spaniel with known lines of (Sudden Rage). Not the American Variant. Sorry. Get your fact straight.

In America the American Cocker lines have gone through a lot of overhaul and could afford to since they are no longer a number 1 status in popularity They don't even make the the top 50. The English Variant isn't even on the list. for the top 100. Again sorry, its possibly due to all the rage from the overbreeding and very selective line breeding practices. You know the same practices revised in the US to the benefit of the American Cockers.

So, literally 45 thousand Labradors are registered in the KC each year. And that's just talking the ones that are registered so lets say about another 25 Thousand just hanging around in the populations. The sheer numbers alone give them a great wealth of diversity and more than likely its the pet populations with the most amount of that key element towards improving the MHC genetic factor in the breed. And raising the effectiveness of the immune system in those populations.

So being the number 2 dog in the KC I suppose it can be a help to the English Variant, but overbreeding from a small founding population and then the almost insane practice of selective line breeding and inbreeding for "cosmetic" appeal then "performance" traits (chuckles) like that somehow inherited. Most likely these factors are what caused the Sudden rage dogs to proliferate in the UK. ;-)

Otherwise you can pet my Cockers and maybe help train them to be full of rage and bite like a good old overbred distant cousin from overseas(LOL). But I think you're going to have a real hard time. With that. I'll even pay for your ticket to fly over for a visit.

Yes we do show our dogs, but its not our first priority to become a dog fanatic to get a dog to go all over the place and win a ribbon for our own vanity. YES our own vanity, because your dog really doesn't give a crap about all the show points. You do. You live your life vicariously through your linebred and inbred exaggerations of the breed standards. Sorry, but the Public already knows this.

And when your dogs are starting to show signs of cancer, or a myriad of other genetic inbred diseases and dying at a young age. Then what. Back to the starting board?

GOOD LUCK. :-D

Again its the Majority population I stand with that its you and yours' job to prove how the practices the status quo defends will somehow magically reverse in a short period of time the effects they caused over generations by continuing to practice them. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. :-D

DevilDog.....

You have not convinced me ....

Sorry

Convinced you of what wasnt trying to convince you of anything - was putting you straight on a few things you got wrong.. Anyways I have found in my time on forums its always hard to convince unethical breeders...anything.

The Pot calls the Kettle black.

Isn't that the saying. LOL.

The evidence in damning. Time to pick up and start over.

Sorry the public awaits to see the fix for the problem. From where I'm standing the outlook for the status quo looks pretty ....

Bad.

You keep trying to convince your self that what you are doing is right and responsible...while trying to claim such things about other breeds. I guess thats how you get your puppy sales You dont fool them already in the know mind..So your wasting your breath!

You have a really tough road ahead of you. The Arena of public opinion has already made that clear.

CRUFTS anyone? LOL

The public - exactly them that are not around the dog world, them that will believe anything with out asking or seeking evidence. Like I said, just how you get your puppy sales..

Yeah crufts for me - where I will drag my crippled, un healthy dogs around the ring for my own ego!

You mean the Public that drives the demand for more of your dogs? LOL

Oh I forgot you breed Cresteds for a purpose. LOLOLOLOL

Well, homework will show you they were a designer dog too. Created here in the old USA. Crazy Americans must have been looking to make money on that one, Those crazy Back Yard Breeders. LOLOLOL

Yup Crufts where a crippled deformed and sickly dog can even take the winning trophy. ROTFLMAO!!!

wow you really are clueless...
First off CC's where not created in the USA Just they were recognised there before the UK. They originate from Africa ;-) were they were bred to work on ships (ratting). They were then transported over to China and the name was changed on them AGAIN thousands and thousands of years ago!

Ohh and if you read back PROPERLY (like you keep telling others) I never said todays breeders of pedigree dogs all breed for a purpose - just the breed was created for a purpose.

I am not a breeder either. - So sorry to disappoint but your history on breeds is rubbish. Now I think its you that needs to catch up on your home work.

LOLOLOLOL

Riiiiiiight. Who told you that? The Breeders?

LOL

There are many 'old' sources of evidence. who told you - google

Crest Haven Kennels. Look up the founders of your dog.... right here in the USA.

LOL

Cheers and Cheerio

Google it was then! Actually crest Haven were said to have started the Chinese Crested in the 1920s, after crossing two breeds together. YES its said thats where the modern CC comes from and another founding kennel - NOT where the breed originated from! sooo thank you...and good bye!

LOL... Right you find a breed of hairless dogs in Africa then get back to me. ROTFLMAO.

My sources are far more accurate than Google....

The truth will set you free.

You have totally lost me now..Me finding a dog in Africa will not prove if thats the orgin of the CC or not! As I am talking thousands and thousands of years ago, where the worked and lived on ships!

LOL.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Ideologies from Myth and Hearsay.

The foundation for Religion. Well whatever works for you mate. ;-)

Now getting back on topic....

The purpose to breed any dog in today's modern times is to provide a healthier longer living companion for the Majority that demands it. Not the minority that wants a dog for a purpose of hunting, Field trials or Showing.

There are far more dogs being breed than the demand for them from those purpose driven minorities.

The Pet Market is continually disappointed from the populations of purebreds being brought into this world only to live and die from painful and expensive debilitating diseases. This market demands a better return from the time invested in creating these dogs.
And the benefits are not going to be seen in continuing on the road into the future with more of the same from the Status Quo.