Yellow Flat Coats? Controversial

Nope, in fact the yellow occurrence in FCR was very common. As common as it is for labradors. The same genetic maps can be used to predict the expected percentages in FCR litters today. The fact that you don't see more yellow variants has more to do with selectively breeding away from that trait or culling. Both of which are a disservice to diversity and a huge contributing variable to weakened immune systems over the generations reflected in the MHC genetic factors in our purebred dogs.

The yellow FCR in the beggining of the breed creations was either culled via the bucket of water or bred away from. Or removed from the litters and labeled as (Yellow or Cream) Goldens. The mere fact that even today a field bred Golden looks very similar to a Yellow FCR literally shows a reflection of their intertwined histories in the living.

you're right, it was common, but it isn't now, but the sudden re-emmergence of yellows, and some of the associated problems, has led, to the conclusion from those more knowledgeable than me, that FCR's have been outcrossed to golden's to try and produce the rare and popular yellow colour?

Would you say there's any truth in that?

Nope. And again a DNA test would verify this if there is any question. In fact for cross registration between registries... It's required. If anything... The Goldens have a history of Black and Liver FCR in their histories. With a sprinkle of the occasional Lab, St. Johns, Tweed Spaniel and even Curlies.

How's that for a Designer dog recipe.

So, and apologies for putting you on the spot here, how do you explain the sudden re-emergence of yellow flat coats in Northeren European countries, when they had, for the main part, been bred out?

Not sure if you know about breeding lines etc over the water, but would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Our boy is from Sweden. DNA tested positive for FCR.

There isn't so much a re-emmergence as there is a higher variable of hitting a pairing of dogs that both carry the Yellow factor today and a more humane society that tends to not cull the color away. It is possible to use a carrier of Yellow to produce full litters of Black and Liver.... Two carriers will produce a mixd litter. And should you decide to forego an enforced spay and neuter policy on the pups, then you've effectively contributed something positive back to the diversity of the breed.

Chuckle, dna positive for FCR? But surely, if all these breed types are from a similar base, a dna test only tells you the roots of a breed, not what breed it is?

I apologise as I'm not trying to pick fault, but I do think it's important people know that possibly other breeds have been, are being used to supplement other breeds, whether that's for colour or conformation. As ethical dog breeders, we realy need to get this issue sorted out.

And, just to add, I am not biased against FCR's, very nearly ended up with a pup myself earlier this year, but was told by those in England, to avoid dogs from the continent because of the influence of recent GR outcrosses to bring in yellow.

Yes, likewise all humans are from the same Species yet DNA testing can show conclusively what race among others any sample is from. The same applies to dogs. If there is a question of Phenotype then you have reason to test. And you can thank the Boxer for the breakthroughs made in modern science that served as the springboard for mapping the DNA with breed specific markers for each specific breed. Using each sample as a genetic reference to each other. The science is pretty accurate....we're talking 99.999999999999999% accurate. To the point where if there is question between two yellow retrievers that look and feel like an FCR or fit the breed specific "Phenotype" then there is a reason to test for "Genotype". And it does reveal whether you are looking at a Golden or an FCR.

I do understand the point for a chuckle. Because when it comes down to it. You do have tools to determine the difference. And if there is a lot of golden mixture in the FCR lines in England....Well, I give those breeders a pat on the back. They've certainly done more towards improving their current situation than others who stand on the hardline for breed purity...Now that's a chuckle. But literally ....

The issues you speak of can be found across all lines of working dogs. Interbreeding is like a long pastime that the dog fancy typically lives in denial about. But when faced with a DNA test.... you'll weed out the imposters from the real thing.

***By the way. I wonder what was mixed in with Goldens to achieve the Show look of a Light Cream colored Newfoundland that has become so popular in England. The Creators of the Breed from a century ago would turn in their graves from the sight of what's become of them, wouldn't you agree?****

Pardon????????? light cream show Newfoundland

Chatham Hill, this thread's about yellow flat coats, I don't think you'll be popular trying to bring other breeds into disrepute with statements pulled from the air. It's very easy to see exactly why big boned fluffy golden's appear in the show ring, it's what has been rewarded in the show ring for a number of years, the deeper golden colour working retrievers still exist. Likewise, if you compare the smallest, finest boned working Labrador, to the largest show type dog, they will look pretty much like different breeds. But, for the most part at least, only Labradors have been used in their recent breeding.

Do you actually think there's some truth behind the rumours about GR's being used to increase the incidence of yellow flat coats then? Or is it merely a rumour, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Oh I see what she means now, for a minute I thought she meant cream coloured Newfoundlands in the ring

Chatham Hill obviously has not concept of the GR, in the UK, if she took the time to research, she woudl see that the UK and the US type are poles apart, fashion dictates what type is successful, and I rather love the lighter /cream Goldies , you still see the deeper colour though in the ring, but the American Goldie (for me) it to light in bone and head.

Only A personal opinion mind, as with the Boxer, not a fan of the US type, to tall leggy and and light in bone.

Regards the FCR having GR introduced for colour, could explain why I can see a hint of Goldies in her dogs!!

I have been off the site for a couple of days, but am now able to attempt a response to your post.

The standard for the FCR was not written by "some closed minded people". The breed is a very long established breed which almost died out between the World Wars. Before that the gene pool was a lot more diverse than many people realise, especially in this country. As I said before the colours have always been black/liver not yellow. Yellows have never shown up in significant numbers and has (and still is) always been absent from the breed standard, and the few puppies born were a rarity rather than a 33% norm as you are mistakenly saying.

Historically of course ALL breeds are the result of originally crossing TYPES - not breeds. Cross one breed to another and you have a crossbreed. I really do not comprehend what you say whjen the FCR was an original Heinz 57 and a laundry list of breeds. Do you mean TYPE ?

The FCR was specifically bred for a purpose. Itg is one of the finest gundogs every produced and people in thius country worked fauithgfdully to protect and maintain its very special traits. It was not produced for a "pet" market and specifically sized down for a "market". In this country many flatcoats work regularly and a good flatcoat excels at what he does. So you are trying demean and belittle its abilities and attributes when as per your website you breed for a "smaller family dog, which is calm indoors and doesn't shed much". Who ever told you a flatcoat was "calm".

As far as health goes, in this country (I cannot be sure in America) the flatcoat on the whole a healthy dog (healthier than the average purebred dog).

I noticed from your webiste you are crossing the flatcoats with the American Cocker to achieve your crossbred Chatham Hill Retriever (Trademarked). The American Cocker has many breed related problems - some of which are as follows :-
Health

American Cocker Spaniels in UK and USA/Canada had a median lifespan of about 10 to 11 years, which is on the low end of the typical range for purebred dogs, and 1 to 2 years less than other breeds of their size. The larger English Cocker Spaniel typically lives about a year longer than the American Cocker Spaniel. In a 2004 UK Kennel Club survey, the most common causes of death were cancer (23%), old age (20%), cardiac (8%), and immune-mediated (8%).[28] In a 2003 USA/Canada Health Survey with a smaller sample size, the leading causes of death were cancer, hepatic disease, and immune-mediated.

American Cockers are easy to breed, and this combined with their previously high popularity resulted in the breed frequently being bred by backyard breeders or in puppy mills. This indiscriminate breeding has increased the proliferation of certain health issues in non-pedigree lines.

American Cocker Spaniels are susceptible to a variety of illnesses, particularly infections affecting their ears and, in some cases, their eyes. Although the number or percent of afflicted dogs is not known the following eye conditions have been identified in some members of the breed: Progressive retinal atrophy (PRA), glaucoma, and cataracts.[30] The American Spaniel Club recommends annual eye exams by a veterinary ophthalmologist for all dogs that are bred. Autoimmune problems in Cockers have also been identified in an unknown number or percent of the breed, including autoimmune hemolytic anemia (AIHA). Ear inflammations are common in drop-eared breeds of dog, including the American Cocker and Luxating patellas and hip dysplasia have been identified in some members of the breed.

In addition, heart conditions such as dilated cardiomyopathy, where the heart becomes weakened and enlarged; and sick sinus syndrome, which is an type of abnormal heart beating which causes low blood pressure. Phosphofructokinase deficiency is a condition caused by a recessive gene in the breed which prevents the metabolism of glucose in energy causing the dog to be extremely low energy and unable to exercise. The gene which causes this appears in around 10 percent of the population, but DNA testing can prevent two carrier dogs from breeding thus creating puppies with this condition.

American Cockers are also prone to epilepsy and the related condition known as Rage Syndrome. The Syndrome is a form of epilepsy which can cause a normally placid dog to violent attack unprovoked suddenly. Both conditions appear to be inheritable.

From this it can be seen that the American Cocker has its not inconsiderable number of health related problems - more than a WELL BRED flatcoated retriever.

Your site says you are creating a new "designer" dog and as I said I am concerned that you are doing this with the flatcoated retriever. In my opinion, you are doing the flatcoated retriever a great diservice. When you get tri-colours, black and white, black and tans in your crosses - will they be excluded from your programme in favour of yellows. You make me smile when you say racist - you really don't know me Fortunatley your Chatham Retriever will eventually become so unlike a flatcoat as to be harmless to the breed.
There are many people trying to create the perfect "designer pet" dog - I wish they they could educage and create a perfect "pet owner" rather than trying to fit creatures into a lifestyle where they become merely ornaments or status symbols. The perfect pet dog does not exist and I believe there are plenty of dogs or all types, sizes and temperaments already. Its just the owners unrealistic expectations that are so wrong. Dogs do shed, are smelly, too big, too small, often undisciplined and become ill, kill things, bite, are badly reared and undersocialised - this is not a dog's fault - it is as humans expecting something they are not. I have now digressed and I could go on and on about this and get boring so I will stop.

You did not answer the question as to why you are breeding, nor why you are really trying to miniaturise an established specialised active, outdoor breed of dog, when there are plenty of suitable alternatives available - even in the retrieving breeds.

You are furthering nothing in the dog world - I believe you are just increasing the weight of your pockets at the expense of a breed I love dearly.

Spot on, only one reason behind this breeder, and we know and see it all the time.

Money!!!!!!!!!!!

I prefer the working golden retriever, they look fabulous out on a shoot picking up.

It could possibly be a reason why some of the yellow flat coats do appear to have a more domed head, and are generally a little less laterally compressed as the liver/black dogs?? I've not seen vast numbers of them in the flesh I have to admit, but have seen a big difference in some of the sizes.

Edited to add, just looked at the website and wish I hadn't :-(

You really need to review your FCR history lessons then. And your Golden History Lessons And even your Labrador History Lessons. And again... perhaps if the trends towards Fads didn't dictate such exaggerated features in the dogs then it would be an easy pill to swallow when either the US or UK show type Goldens are presented to the Majority of the public and called a Golden. For most the reaction on either side of the ocean is...."Well, I guess so?", because from our generation a Golden looked and typed more like the field variation .... It's really difficult to talk about Flat Coats and not reference any of the other breeds of retrievers, their histories don't allow us to focus on any single variant of the retriever. Just about all of them were interbred at one time or another and this was done in order to fix perceived flaws in cosmetic or characteristics time and again and to present to a standard phenotype, but you already knew this Tarimoor, I'm sure you must, knowing the history of your own Labrador. ;-)

And I guess you have no idea of the use of other dogs to improve the Labradors as well. For example there is a reason why many Labradors of the working field type run like they've got some greyhound in them and there has to be an explanation for the Long Haired variant of Labradors that pop up occasionally, as well as the infamous silver labs with a hint of Weimaraner in their veins to produce diluted Chocolates and The Blue Labs with Diluted Blacks. Not knocking the reasoning... I applaud it. Its possibly a very good explanation for a longer average lifespan in the Labrador today. Also keeping in mind that with such a large population that a wealth of diverse DNA exist because of it.

But for the FCR the DNA pool is thin. Extremely thin. So if the ability to create new foundation stock by throwing in some bloodlines from other retrieving breeds can help to shuffle the genetic deck in favor of a strengthened immune system and offer an increase in the diversity that is favorable to a longer healthy life. Then its effectively doing what our ancestors did in the first place to present to us. your Golden or Labrador or Flattie or Chessie or Curlie etc etc etc that you see before you today.

For Example; take the Irish Wolfhound; What is it really? Because it went extinct. Literally died out. And the Breed was recreated by literally outcrossing various breeds to obtain the same phenotype of the Original Irish Wolfhound. A new foundation stock had to literally be rebuilt to bring back a representation in more modern times of what our ancestors called a Wolfhound. So should we question the existence of the breed in any of the registries? It looks like one, acts like one, therefore it is one. And the genetic map from a blessed example is now the reference to move forward with. BUT.... once it was put back into a system with closed stud books....the breed took a big hit once again.....they are all from close linebreeding and inbreeding... and the results are extremely shortened life expectancies. Do you not see any similar trend currently with FCR???

As for boxers.... I like them. Don't like the physical faults bred into them that are called a positive. In the hands of many average people the "accepted faults" can lead to other problems. But, hey the Boxer is what it is and although my Uncle is a Boxer person.... I'm a Sporting breed person. Oh well. If anything the dog world owes a lot to the boxer for the breakthrough with mapping the Dog genome. So my appreciation for your breed of choice Jackbox, is high....Thank you. Curious to know your thoughts on the bobtailed boxers that were crossed with Corgi's. Are they accepted in the registries now right? And really, upon close inspection can you really tell which is which without looking for a scar remnant where the tail was lopped off of the older variant of the breed.

(Chuckles) I guess there's no guessing then about those Goldens that look like FCR or those LAbs That resemble flatties. Who are we kidding here? Examine the histories. They are so intertwined that your points just apply across the board.

You really should know the histories. Really understand it. Then bring it. Because the Scientific community, along with the Majority of the public and the latest generation of Veterinary and Medical experts aren't blind or quiet about the problems that 90% of the dog fancy created nor the logical steps taken by some dog lovers to correct those problems.

And aerolor just shuffling the genetic deck is an extremely favorable contribution to the dog population. But a traditional breeder hung up on centuries old practices would find their ideologies hitting a wall when faced with a combination of common sense and modern scientific conclusive evidence. Its not to say you don't love your dogs. You perhaps just don't understand the true problems and the bigger picture. If you did breed your FCR.... would you give them away for free? So again tell me how much money you don't expect to see for your efforts in weaning and caring for them before they are placed in the homes of your clients. Oh and you do interview your clients right? I mean you do know where they are and keep tabs on them don't you? And while your at the attempts to disparage me.... ummm do you even know how bad the issues are for the FCR? And what exactly have you done to improve it? How long are your dogs living? Their siblings? Their Aunts and Uncles? How many would you require be spayed and neutered? Hmmm?

The fact that our "designer dogs" (the preferred term is hybrid) are New....Well what are you comparing them to? The FCR? Again... read your histories. FCR are in fact another hybrid dog experiment. ;-) Unless you deny they were crossed then out crossed and backcrossed to begin with. Our Breeds today, with the exception of a few pariah breeds, were all created from crossing other breeds. If you check the stud books from your very own registries you can learn this for yourself. These weren't types, they were other breeds. All of our pure breeds today were considered mongrels before the studs books lowered the boom with a closed registry system. Why continue to deny that?

And again, understanding genetics...you can breed for solid colors even in a Hybrid dog. But, I would welcome a tricolor. I rather like the look of a LArge Munsterlander. Looks rather like a multicolored FCR. Almost like the FCR version of a Landseer Newfoundland.

Cockers like FCR or any breed have their associated problems. The goal is to reshuffle the deck. And provide a more diverse genetic base that will skew those statistics you're studying in a favorable way. If you don't get that, you'll never "get it". And when the day comes when the FCR can't rebound from some devastating disease that perhaps isolated to just the breed. Maybe, I'll need to start working on recreating them... like the Irish Wolfhounds. We'll see where the future leads. ;-)

The World is changing. So should our thinking about what is truly beneficial to the preservation of pure bred dogs. The common ground being a better outlook for the dogs we love and their progeny.

I'm not sure what the wink is for, but yes, of course I knew about the history of the Labrador and other retrievers being a mixed one. Even as late as the second world war, things were a little mixed with many breeds.

What is your purpose other than to dupe people into thinking you're breeding something special, by having yellow flat coats? I apologise if that comes across as harsh in the written word, as it's not meant to. Breeding for colour alone to me, is unethical, breeding purely to supply the pet market is also unethical; there has to be some goal to which you are heading, and your goal appears to be to produce a small, calm dog indoors. I suggest you just direct people to rescue organisations, where they will find plenty of small calm dogs that would love to live indoors.

Producing this type of hybrid does nothing to further the cause of either breed, you can't keep a type by breeding to a completely different kind of breed type. If you were honest in your intentions about further the flatcoat gene pool, surely you would have used something from the retriever group? And, as for your intentions to breed a smaller retriever type, FCR's come in different sizes, I know of a few that are smaller than my Labs, if people wanted a small FCR, then they should research their lines, and see if they can buy one of a slightly lesser build.

Your website does come across as a commercial venture, rather than someone passionate about a breed and wanting to further it, by breeding ethically. Again, apologies, and it might just be the difference between US and UK ways of presenting information, but I'd rather give my true opinion politely, than put forward a dishonest view.

Tarimoor; Things from the Retriever group? They are all in the same boat, in fact Goldens may be worse off than the FCR. And Spaniels along with other breeds have been crossed in with retrievers to begin with, so I fail to see your point there. Understandably when conveying a perspective in a 2 dimensional medium like text a lot can can be lost so ... thanks for your apology. I accept. In a nutshell much of the negatives detailed as common ailments in any single breed benefit from a genetic reshuffling of the deck when crossed to another breed. And that's also provided you research the lines from either end of the equation. if I need to re quote my own statements it gets too repetitious, but I'll say again its not like we're going out and purposefully selecting the worst examples of either breed in the equation.

I don't dupe anyone. In fact I educate them if anything on the true history of the dogs they are interested in and the histories of the dogs that are also a part of the history of their dog of choice. They don't walk away without knowing what went into an FCR, and how it ties into all the other retrievers as well as Hounds, Collies, Pointers, Setters and yes...Spaniels. Literally when our pups are picked up there is a party thrown for all the new owners, and they sit and get a history lesson along with other details. they leave my home knowing more than the clients of any other FCR breeder. Again I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Size is not the main issue in the bigger scheme of things. And eventually backcrossing will produce something that is a look and feel for the real thing. Again think about the Irish Wolfhound..... a new foundation stock was created. The principal is the same. And there are other registries that do make provisions for the creation of new foundation stock to provide for the introduction of new lines to be established and then brought back into the registry system to the benefit of a breed with low diversity. Its tedious and a lifetime goal if you're serious about it, but it can be done, and if a Golden or FCR is a benefactor from a DNA contribution across the breed lines then GOOD, your ancestors who established these breeds via the same methods would pat you on the back for a job well done.

If the Trademark is what throws you... well, consider this. Without a trademark on our hybrid.... it opens the door to others to jump in and exploit it.... for money. Something we want to avoid. And it allows us to lock in on the project ahead. You can't assume that the end of the equation is a Spaniel and a Flat Coat. There are other breeds to consider in the the final equation for what will eventually be a dog that Phenotypes exactly like an FCR. And it may involve many of the same breeds used in the original formulation or other choices. The choices made on that journey will pan out over time. The end result will be a a new line of FCR that meets the modern demands for a dog that benefits the owner with longer and healthier lives. And perhaps while the rest of the community is still looking at their FCR lines dying from more necrotic cancers and continually shorter life expectancy and I'm getting calls 16 years later from owners of my dogs looking for another one then who's really benefitted the breed? Who's benefited the public demands?

Using one breed to fix another is not unheard of. It depends on what your targeting. Do some research on Designer Dalmations for some insight on that.

My husband has a career. He is a very successful person in his industry of choice. And with his income my family does not ever need to make a living off of breeding dogs. In fact since we couldn't. It is therefore a research hobby and our way to make a positive contribution. since 2004 we've only had a single litter of FCR and 5 litters of Hybrids. certainly not enough to make a living off of them, if anything our veterinary bills and feeding costs eat up a third of that and ..... what's left is nothing by comparison to what my husband's salary is.

So as for my website....what do you suggest when I do have litters? Should I just say come and get them, they'll be out on the driveway and if you want to leave a contribution for all the effort that went into weaning them please do? BY comparison to so so many other website I think mine looks the least commercial. Who else is showing you their home on their website and their children. And if you have puppies available how do you suggest to let the rest of the world know this? By carrier pigeon? A newspaper classified? I happen to own a website that is linked to a social media website fan page. You can talk to our clients. What the hell is so commercial about it? When I open an e-commerce website selling dogs then please shoot me. Until then I happen to be using my website and my social site to promote my dogs and my endeavors. If that somehow offends people who have no inclination to get to know us before throwing stones. Then that's really not my problem. The people who do know me, have no problem. In fact the positives they spread about me.... are viral. And I literally do not have or ever plan to produce enough dogs to meet the demand we are seeing. If I did, then that would be a commercial endeavor. Count me out of that.

aerolor Get your facts straight. English Cockers are the variant with the sudden rage syndrome issues. And American Cockers in general can live 12 to 14 years compared to an FCR average of 7 to 9 years. Some common ailments exist among specific lines of Cockers just as they do within specific lines of MANY other breeds. Doing your homework helps to steer away from those undesirables. In fact History shows that a litter of cockers was often separated by type within those litters. Some becoming English Cocker, Field Cockers or American Cockers. The severe and disatrous effects of fad breeding in the UK brought about a lot of "LINES" ( therefore not all) of English Cockers with sudden rage. Etc etc etc...

But I do challenge aerolor to tell me what her fees are. Still waiting to hear that one and see where she feels I have some marketing advantage. (Chuckles)

The point is, many breeds were used to create a breed, that was then bred to type, you can't necessarily improve a breed by hybridising with a completely different type, even if that was used in the founding of a breed initially. You could argue that most dog breeds are pretty much related, if for example, with Labs, spaniels were used in some early breeding, they're related to many other breeds around today. But, crossing a Lab with a spaniel does nothing for either breed?? It produces an unknown quantity, both in conformation and in health.

Hybrid vigour is a myth, there is a lot more than sticking two different breeds together to produce a healthier animal. In many instances, you are producing unhealthier animals with an unknown health status. The unhealthiest dog I've owned was a Labrador x collie, she lived into old age, but she had a number of problems, including a deformed soft palette, and joint problems. She also had huge behavioural issues, and was lovingly referred to as my old collie wobble. On the other hand, my bitch Tau, that I may take one litter from, is the opposite, she's robust to a blinkin' fault.

I'm sorry (again, apologies) but looking at your website, I don't agree with your historical analogies. You could perhaps make it clearer that it's your opinion and interpretation in the way you write?

The Lua dalmations are old news, and used as an excuse by many for hybridising; what are you trying to fix with the FCR? It simply doesn't need it.

I think your last paragraph is a little sarcastic, I have my one and only litter planned from Tau early next year, I don't have anything yet on my website about it, and won't until/if she's mated. I'm glad you don't plan on any commercial endeavours with dog breeding, but I still struggle to see the need for a new small retriever that's calm in the house, surely we already have enough KC registered breeds, many of which are capable of retrieving, even if not bred specifically for that task?

Anything meant as disparaging towards me has not been sarcastic?

Well, then again ... Understandably when conveying a perspective in a 2 dimensional medium like text a lot can can be lost in translation....

Tell me how what I 've explained is not breeding to type or in effect evolving any given type then using the best of the results to breed back to type. And type being your arguement....again study the research on The LUA DALs or for that matter just look at the bobtail boxers if its all about a type. And again read your own breed histories and perhaps learn about the Irish Wolfhounds then lets discuss your theories on what the difference between a type and a breed are.

Its not opinion with the information I offer. its all factual. In fact the same records and evidence is available to you. And the same resources from reputable historians and authentic historic records.

Who said anything about hybrid vigor? Perhaps Heterosis. But thats more evidence proven conclusive in research about damaged immune systems in relation to poor MHC genetic factors. Hybrid Vigor is a myth. Maybe only proven in studies about plants. And even then its inconclusive. But when you delve into MHC factors its all about a poor immune system in response to many health issues brought about by genetic disorders caused by generations of linebreeding and inbreeding. From your Perspective Tarimoor the situation is not so dire, you are a Labrador person. As an FCR person.... the story is indeed a different one... I just choose not to fall in line with the status quo that is marching ahead on old information.


As for your Collie mix mistake....mistakes happen in the purebred lines ALL THE TIME. So that is an extremely weak example. The process should involve a great deal of research behind the final product to avoid such mistakes. Or as we've seen historically some breed fanciers take the flaw and run with it then spin it into a positive or negative trait to bolster their own reasoning for doing so. Funny how we screw things up for the sake of....... is it a purpose or a fad? I guess it depends on each particular breed club and their own collective ideologies.


If you choose to disagree then that is something we can agree upon. Everyones ideologies won't always mesh when it come to the dogs they love. In my case I prefer to mesh with like minded individuals. And according to the real world, that means I'm standing in the majority population that look back at the established dog fancy and shakes their heads in disbelief over what has become of the breeds we love.

Breeding ANY dog that is the wrong colour if its a pedigree dog, intentionally is for the wrong reasons.

Uh huh, and so thats what you believe. You have every right to think that way. But until you know me. Don't assume those are my reasons.

Inbreeding and close line breeding any dog for cosmetic type or physical trait is also wrong.