Yellow Flat Coats? Controversial

For Ramble
Yes does depend on breeding - but really the thing is that what most people want is a good, well-bred dog with a temperament true to the breed. At the end of the day temperament is far more important than beauty, which is largely in the eye of the beholder) - although, temperament, beauty and brains is really something - hope you agree.

Hmmm...I do see what you mean and would probably have said the same thing a few years ago (pre Dogsey etc) and whilst yes, temperament is vital (and for me brains fall into that category ) but I don't want a FCR that has a bad head and looks like a Lab...I want a FCR that looks like a FCR...because I think they are stunning dogs. I love their pointy heads and faces, their elegant frames and their exceptionally waggy tails...and I never thought I would like a good foot! I do though...and for me now it's all part and parcel of a decent FCR...I want it to be a good allrounder.

Just seen your post Ramble, so am a bit late responding - There are exceptions (and I have seen one with a most peculiar head) but generally if I was choosing a puppy I would go for a well balanced pup generally, nothing too extreme - although I must admit I do like a good sized flatcoat and am drawn to the heavier old fashioned type - If the pup looked like it was going to have a head which was not quite correct, as long as I thought it was pleasing to me, I don't think I would worry. I must admit I am not too keen on the pointy heads with no stop and would take the pup who was likely to have a heavier head with a stop, rather than the dog with a snipey jaw and no definition in the face. I would go for the expression and character in a head and face. Feet are another matter, but again they have to be able to do their job and the breed standard says it all. We could have an interesting chat about this.

Yes, we here at Chatham Hill in the USA; do breed the Yellow Flat-coat Retriever. He is registered with the Swedish Kennel Club and the American Kennel Club. Our Yellow Flat-Coat has sired a litter and all puppies were registered with the AKC.

We have a planned breeding of a Flat-coat Retriever, using one of his Liver bitches from his first litter and a Black Flat-coat dog that carries the Yellow gene. All of their puppies, black/liver/yellow will be registered with the AKC.

Our miniature retrievers, "Chatham Hill Retrievers" ®,sell quite nicely. Many of our miniature retrievers are used as hunting dogs.

We have updated our website with many new pictures and some new information.

[Link removed]

Looks like there's never a dull moment in your house!!!

I saw a chocolate coloured one recently - or would that be liver?
I couldn't really stop & ask the owner as it was another guide dog & he was working (The only ones I ever see are guide dogs)
He was lovely though

Yes, the liver is Brown.

We are always busy, with the children and the dogs.

But the American Kennel Club states - and I quote -

Color
Solid black or solid liver. Disqualification-- Yellow, cream or any color other than black or liver.

This is as per the British KC. so solid black or liver are the only colours permitted by both Kennel Clubs.

Yes I know its a disqualification, I cannot show him in Conformation, but its still a good healthy dog. So just because the AKC says Yellow is disqualified than you CANNOT BREED? That is just crazy. That is Racism, or some form of it.

It doesn't say you can't breed the Yellow. Its says its disqualifed that is all.
It doesn't say its unhealthy. It doesn't say it is not registrable.

Of course, anyone can breed any dog of any type, colour, whatever, just the same as anyone can breed "miniature" retrievers, (whatever they may be). There is no law against it and you can sell what you want (which is think is the governing factor in what you do). The true motives involved here should be considered and understood by everyone.
You seem to be breeding for a recessive and novelty colour and I do not believe that breeding yellow into flatcoats is good for the breed as a whole. It goes without saying that it is hoped any dog you breed and sell would be healthy, if nothing else (for the buyer's sake and the puppies future health).
As the colour is disqualified from the American and UK breed standard, yellow dogs cannot compete in shows. Therefore, your dogs cannot be matched/judged against the breed standard and other flatcoated retrievers. Therefore, you cannot have an accepted yardstick against which to prove and improve your dogs. I hope you explain this to your customers and they understand what they are buying. There is so much more to a flatcoat than a novel colour. Yellow will also do nothing to further the interests of a very special breed which I have long loved and had an interest in..
No reputable breeder would mate their dog with a yellow stud (or a yellow carrying stud), or breed from a yellow (or yellow carrying) bitch. Flatcoats in America and Canada originated from foreign imports (largely British lines) and they would all have been black or liver. This is how you developed and improved the line. If you read any of the breed books and look at the history of the breed you would understand that the breed has been developed over centuries and is the result of careful and knowledgable breeding. Yellow is a recessive colour and is a serious fault in this breed. You are doing nothing to further the interests of this lovely breed.
I am sorry to say it but I think the purpose of your post here is to advertise your business.

First let me say...I found this forum in a google search about yellow flatcoats, I know you are in Europe, so why would I need to advertise my business...this thread has already done so by other forum members almost a year ago.

I know all about the history, of the breed and the AKC. We along with other breeders of Flatcoats, do not let the AKC govern what we produce. Serious fault--its just a color. Yellow can be standard size/height/weight etc. The only thing they are not are black/liver.

The families we sell our puppies to, know all about the yellow flat-coat retriever and know that if they purchase a yellow FCR they cannot show it---that's all, they can't show it in the ring.

Only breeding Black/Liver dogs and not the Yellow means you are gettin rid of 1/3 of the gene pool that is a disservice to the breed. Only breeding the Champion dogs to countless bitches is a disservice to the breed. Same Sire Syndrome is detrimental to the breed.

Understood - a renegade, not abiding by established standards - Does this mean you do not approve of the FCR Society of America either or abide by their guidelines ?

Flatcoated retrievers do not usually throw yellows or come in the standard three colours like labrador retrievers - so you are not eliminating a third of the gene pool by excluding the recessive yellow.

Not all breeders breed from show champion dogs -a flatcoated retriever is a dual purpose breed and ideally breeding lines/programmes should reflect that. This is the way to further the breed and maintain health.

I have briefly looked on your site and noticed the "miniature" retriever alongside the yellow flatcoat. You are breeding down in size to accommodate the "pet" market - this is a shame. I am so sorry you seem to be attempting this with the flatcoated retriever - These are crossbred/designer dogs and I only hope it doesn't catch on here. :-(

Why are you breeding? What is the motivation behind you breeding yellow FCRs?

I agree. Totally.
To breed yellow FCRs on purpose is, in my opinion, wrong. It is being done for novelty value and to make money based upon that...not to further the breed in any way, shape or form.

Breeding IN a fault is also detrimental to the breed.
Your 'families' are entirely for the pet market then...so you breed I assume to make money, not to further the breed.
Do your dogs work?

Surely the clues in the wording, if its disqualified its an undesirable trait.

Unless ofcause you are simply breeding for "rare" demand of colour??

Yes I also looked at her site, and wondered myself what the purpose of the miniature was!!

I think we can guess really ,

Breeding in a Physical fault is detrimental if that fault poses a serious health risk...like the many breeds with associated health problems due to pushed in faces, extremely shortened limbs or the long laundry list of physical freakishness associated with the breed due to the many standards in need of serious revisions.

In fact a color is not a physical fault. It is a human preference and therefore the standard written by some closed minded people was more harmful to the diversity in this breed by eliminating a segment of the population based on color alone. Thats the real truth in this matter.

Breeding for a designer dog. Hmmm. Well, thats ironic when you consider .... if you truly know the history of the many dogs labeled pure breeds today.... they all have a history that links them to other breeds. They are all in fact made by human design. The Flat Coat being one of the original heinz 57 breeds when you again keep in mind the long laundry list of breeds that went into its creation in the first place. Its so sad how often purists fail to remember this. The only thing that keeps the label of pedigree on the breed is the closed registry they are now acknowledged in. And those same registries are the root of their own poor diversity in the first place.

Understanding the factors behind what diversity offers any population of animals it then answers several other questions. ....

Lowered immune systems are the ultimate result of a closed registry that is then forced to breed from a small founding population of dogs. And then further limiting this by breeding out a segment based on color, then eventually getting to a point when 80% of the litters born are again forced into a spay/neuter agreement further diminishes the diversity factor for the breeds in question. The long term results eventually show as shortened lifespans, more chronic health disorders and higher rates of necrotic types of cancer all due to a poor immune system that was put there from generations of inbreeding and line-breeding combined with the effects of same (popular) sire syndrome.

I challenge any of you breeders of FCR to find any dog in your demographic region that is not related to your own dog. Then ask yourselves why you breed.

Because if its to improve the breed, which is what I often hear from the really closed minded type who seem to proceed with blinders on... Then how does line breeding and inbreeding and using popular sires help the breed? Is it because those champion trial dogs and show dogs look and act like the siblings and parents before them so they must be far superior? Superior what? Hunting dogs? In modern times how many of your clients hunt?

Seriously, the pet populations are what keep the demand for more dogs going. Its riddled with problems, but I'm not a part of the problem, I'm trying to be a part of the fix. And I breed to address a larger concern that should be the reason in modern times to breed. Clients in search of a companion animal want a longer healthier life out of that animal. They don't give a rats ass about the purebred pedigree so much anymore because the registries through their own fault have devalued themselves. Thus the reason for so many hybrids now. They are no different than our ancestors who created your precious pure breeds. Just that we happen to be in the 21st century and have a better understanding of health issues today.

So for any of you to criticize me and assume I'm in this to make a killing on selling hybrids.... You're so far off its funny. I know there are not that many hunters in the world to drive the demand for so many litters of FCR, so essentially all those FCR not placed in a home with hunters are companion animals being sold at a profit. Why lie to yourselves and try to look down at me.

I don't churn out litters and sell to just anyone. In fact, by comparison I do more background checks and show more concern for the long term care and safety of my litters than anyone one else who breeds. I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Our dogs both Purebred and Hybrid have found homes with loving families. Some of them hunt, some of them live active lifestyles, and some of them use our dogs as service animals to assist in helping them live normal lives even with a handicap.

I research our lines and our partnerships. I have a better understanding of the benefits of a COI calculated from more than the registry's required 4 generations... I go back as far as 12. And with geneticists, Medical doctors and Veterinarians within my family and friends, I can say with confidence I know I'm doing more beneficial things for the FCR than the few who've addressed me here on Dogsey forums.

Not breeding Yellow because its a fault. Funny.

Almost sounds like racism.

And considering that the Kings and queens of England already taught us that inbreeding and line breeding for the sake of purity could lead to disastrous genetic defects like .... Oh ... Hemophilia. I think we humans would have learned a lesson from that.

Yellow is a recessive trait. Yup Just like in those Golden Retrievers. You all knew Goldens were really Black dogs with a yellow recessive right? That bredding a yellow to a yellow produces Yellow? That Retrievers were once a classification to describe a function? And that any dog that could retrieve was called a retriever? You do after all know your history right? And that litters of FCR used to be separated by color and the yellow variants were the Original "Golden Retriever" right? You knew all this.


Before you come back at me.... Make real sure you know what you're talking about before trying to label or disparage me. If you're not doing anything positive to help your breed, then you really have no bone to pick with me. And I did not come here to look for a fight. I kind of like it here.

The silence is stunning.

Since you don't like silence, what about the issues with yellows being introduced via unregulated litters with goldies? It's been alleged by some that this has happened, would be interested in thoughts....

The Golden and the FCR have an intertwined history. In fact without the FCR, you would have no Goldens. And throughout the stud records for the Goldens there is record of several different types of retrievers and water spaniel interbreeding.

The only way to certify now the true blood of your FCR or Golden, if question should arise is a DNA test.

But, in all honesty, an interbred retriever with parents of sound health histories is in a much better position than the lines of pure bred dogs it came from.

I'm aware of the history of retrievers, I own Labradors.

So are you saying goldies have been included in some lines to bring in the yellow colour?

Apologies if it sounds terse, just a question, you hear an awful lot about different breeds and breeding....