Yankee Doodle Dandy IX born 06/11/15 Showing

I imagine Geoff Corish would be first to volunteer - I can't imagine anyone more experienced than a Crufts Best in Show judge that specialises in the breed. Geoff has been showing his JRT's in Ireland so there must be FCI judges over there. Andrew Brace has also awarded them some decent wins on the continent. Then there are visiting foreign judges .......
We are talking classes, but maybe no tickets for a while though.

Yes I agree, I would guess they will have to follow the same process of all breeds striving for CC's. Regarding the judges I would think it will depend on their judging calendar for the next few years as most will already be committed.

Yes Jackie, I imagine that any dog without breed records would have to be of exceptional quality to gain KC approval. Eventually a certain show type will become the paradigm, and the others will fall by the wayside - which is probably why the working people are so opposed to KC interference. This is roughly the same as has happened in gundogs - the two types will exist side by side, but bear little relationship to each other. The pictures of the ones I have seen winning CACIB's do look super little dogs, which may advance their CC prospects somewhat.

Isn't CC status based on numbers, rather than looks ?

There are still breeds that are well established that are as yet to gain CC's , from my understanding, I would think it's going to take a good few years to establish a correct type in the uk, I am sure it will come on day , but it's going to take time,

@6JRT's, I'm sorry this thread has wandered off topic.

@Jackie, I'm not sure, but within a couple of years the numbers could be rising quite quickly at a time when support for many other breeds is falling. It will be interesting to watch what does happen from April onwards.

I'm so confused I thought that the Parson and Jack were breed splits?

They are !

It is complicated. This is the situation as I see it.
At present only the Parson JRT's have show classes and KC registrations. The proposal is that from April 1st., the short legged JRT's - which vastly outnumber the Parsons - are granted KC status.
Where this type do have recorded pedigrees, up to now these have been maintained either by their breed club, or by being registered with the FCI Kennel Clubs from which they were originally imported. The vast number of JRT's do not have pedigrees, (or only informal pedigrees), and the working terrier men are opposed any KC involvement.

In the words of that great US sitcom 'Soap', Confused? You will be!

Plus, the UK KC does not recognise FCI registration, which is why we have the import register which a breed stays on till it gains KC recognition.

Okay so they ARE the same breed but there was a split of show dogs with pedigrees kept and working dogs unregistered or only registered with clubs or pedigrees kept by breeders? I think I understand. I was getting confused because I saw posts here saying they were the same dog but recognized under Parson then saw another saying they are not the same breed. This is sorta like the AST / APBT situation I take it.

No they are not the same breed, the parson Russell and the jack russel terrier are two different breeds....the Parson russel is a kc registered breed the jack russel is a type ( or has been in the uk until now) the JRT has its own breed club that some owners breeders have been affiliated to, but the majority of JRT 's in the UK are and will always be a type, because they come in all shapes and sizes, when they do establish reconision by the UK KC , they will be a breed, and will become uniformed in looks, hence a breed standard being set down.

When the get KC states they will be in the terrier group, but NOT to be mistaken for a Parson Russell.

Regarding the APBT/ AST , the APBT is a breed, recongised by thr US KC, the AST is not a breed it's a type , again no uniformity to the standard as I understand it.

Hope this makes it less confusing to you,

See how woefully confusing it is lol

So it comes down to one's definition of a breed. If it is a physical breed standard and increased homozygosity then no they are not a breed. However breeds exist without a written standard for a strict narrowing physical type. If that were the case many working breeds would not exist, like the Border Collie for instance. You can consider a group of working dogs with the same genetic background a breed.
Here in the US we have had pure bred JRTs for awhile, primarily working dogs but a breed none the less. They are already a "recognized breed" here as well with the official kennel clubs. Though a written standard / recognition does not suddenly make a group of dogs a breed.
Basically I'm finding people who day they are not the same and others saying they are the same from a breed split. Which is why I thought of the AST vs APBT debate / split situation and you yourself said they were a breed split above.

I know what groups are. I understand that. I realize they will be recognized separately and understand why. Here they are recognized separately as Parson Russel & Jack Russell / Russel.

I'm not sure if it's less. As I'm even more confused by this statement. By your use of standards to define a breed the AST standard was written in 1936 so how would it not be considered a breed? No matter how long a written standard has been established there will always be some variation in type within breeds (not a bad thing at all!) due to all the different breeders and lack of total control over genetics.

this may help explain
There are not a lot of differences between the Parson, Jack Russell, and Russell
Terrier, but all three are considered different breeds, and this is where it can get confusing. The Russell terrier is actually a shorter version of the Jack Russell terrier. Australia and other FCI (an international federation of kennel clubs) countries call the Russell terrier a Jack Russell terrier, which is the traditional old style JRT. In the US, the Russell terrier is the same size as the Australian Jack Russell terrier. Both the Russell and Parson terrier are recognized by the AKC, but the Jack Russell terrier isn’t
cont: http://www.canidae.com/blog/2013/07/difference-between-parson-jack-russell-and-russell-terrier.html

I am going to confuse you even more now, yes Parsons & Jacks are related going back to the original terrier that the Revervend John Russell bred in the early 1800's,
when I get home I will copy & paste from the Parson Russell web site & from JRT web site, (both say the basically the same with just bred spec different)

Haha see it is still confusing because it depends where you live and the opinions out there.
See here we only have the two breeds it seems, despite all the name confusion and trying to figure out what is what.
Here AKC registered both the Parson Russell Terrier and Russell Terrier as you said....but they do in fact register the Jack Russell under the name Russell Terrier. Just as they registered Pits under Staffordshire it is the same thing. AKC registered dogs drop the "Jack" part in the name true, but they are UKC registered Jack Russell Terriers who are registered with the AKC and recorded in their stud book as Russell Terrier. So at least here in the US the Russell & Jack Russell are the same when it comes to these registered dogs.
The UKC also recognizes both the Parson Russell & Jack Russell / Russell. In the future once AKC stud books are closed you will no longer be able to register UKC JRT as a RT in the AKC as it usually goes but you would presumably be able to register AKC RT as a UKC JRT.

From reading your link it seems to aline with what I read about them being from the same dogs then diverging and the different types being considered separate breeds.

Edit

Think you posted while I was typing. This is the least confusing so far, this makes absolute sense.

The border collie is a breed split into two types the show and working, there is only one standard for the breed, but the working fraternity do not follow that standard, they breed from dogs that have an instinct to work regardless of looks, this goes for Some gundog breeds i.e spriigers, labs, they breed from working stock and don't adhere to standard, this is what we class as a breed split, the JRT / Parson and those GSDslave pointed out, all have common ansesters , but all are separate breeds.

I know the JRT is recongised in the US, but it has not been here, until now. But what we will find in the future is the breed will end up with a split, show and working as with other breeds.

If you are breeding to type then genetics should produce type, if you don't pay attention to type then as you say you will get a mismatch of dogs that loosely resemble a breed,
Is the AST AKC registered, because here it is a euphemism for a type of dog .[/quote]

I think you missed what I was saying. That is exactly my point though. The working BC is not bred to a physical standard and they have more variation but they are considered a breed not a type. They were a breed before their AKC acceptance (1995) just as the JRT was a breed before their recognition, not simply a "working type" (at least in US). I can only comment on US dogs but the names have a lot of to with clubs and politics, though they do have difference in type. What I read overall seems to imply that they were the same, the longer legged dogs existed and people decided to breed on those because some needed the longer legs. I didn't look in depth of anything either so maybe they did cross something in to get the different type too.
I understand they have different standards now, are considered different breeds. My main question was originally were they initially different types of the same dog. I wasn't saying they are the same breed now. I'm talking about their origins. Look how they created Cairns and Westies, or we have Mini Bull Terrier but I read they are pure BT, smaller ones always existed but they are now a "separate breed". You can have variance of type in a breed, you can split them into variety and even allow breeding between them at times or you can completely segregate them into their own breeds. Breeds can be as broad or narrow as the men controlling them decide.
If I decided to breed Pit Bulls of 25-30lbs of only chocolate color, shorter muzzle and always prick ears they would still be the same breed by blood but people could argue they are bred away from conformation standard or working requirements so that they should be their own breed.

Looking at what you stated before basically JRT is a type, but when they have a standard they will be a breed. That's why I used the Border Collie example. Yes BC have a standard now, but they didn't always, but were a breed. Boerboels have been around for some time but were bred for work with variation too, but still a breed. They were not "just a type" before, they didn't become a breed when AKC recently recognized them. Mine was not registered with any major KC, many breeds are not. There are smaller clubs that keep record just like the major ones though they are not bred for looks. Working dogs descending from the same foundation dogs kept genetically pure are a breed regardless of the higher rate of genetic diversity. Now if in the UK they were crossing and allowing various breeds within their pool as long as they worked then that is a type and I understand if that was the case, it is different than the situation here.

Totally agree. You will have the diehard working people who have no use for standards. No different than working Border Collie, Coon hound or Beagle breeders. If you asked about AKC you'd probably be brushed off.

If that were true there wouldn't be pet quality dogs. You can strive for type but still produce a dog that's too short with an incorrect bite, a dog that doesn't have the right angulation with improper tail set. You can't control all the genes to align exactly as you like. Even those with type that conform to the standard will have variation. Having more variation within working dogs doesn't mean they are not a breed. Yes they will have a looser type but are still recognizable as a particular breed. They breed true within reason.
In some breeds in order to get desirable trait it requires a less desirable one or a DQ trait. So you will not be able to fix the breed for only the desirable breed trait.

Yes the club "invented" the Staffordshire Terrier when Pit Bulls were accepted for AKC registration. They created a written standard in 1936. Around 1972 they added American to the name.

The Jack Russell Terrier is a small terrier that has its origins in fox hunting; it is principally white-bodied and smooth, rough or broken-coated.
The Jack Russell is a broad type, with a size range of 10–15 inches (25–38 cm). The Parson Russell is limited only to a middle range with a standard size of 12–14 inches (30–36 cm), while the Russell terrier is smaller at 8–12 inches (20–30 cm). Each breed has different physical proportions according to the standards of their breed clubs.
The Jack Russell is an energetic breed that relies on a high level of exercise and stimulation and is relatively free from serious health complaints. Originating from dogs bred and used by Reverend John Russell in the early 19th century, it has similar origins to the modern Fox terrier. It has gone through several changes over the years corresponding to different use and breed standards set by kennel clubs. Recognition by kennel clubs for the Jack Russell breed has been opposed by the breed's parent societies – which resulted in the breeding and recognition of the Parson Russell terrier. Jack Russells have appeared many times in film, television and print with several historical dogs of note.
The small white-fox working terriers we know today were first bred by the Reverend John Russell, a parson and hunting enthusiast born in 1795, and they can trace their origin to the now extinct English White terrier. Difficulty in differentiating the dog from the creature it was pursuing brought about the need for a mostly white dog, and so in 1819 during his last year of university at Exeter College, Oxford, he purchased a small white and tan terrier female named Trump from a milkman in the nearby small hamlet of Elsfield.Trump epitomised his ideal Fox terrier, which, at the time, was a term used for any terrier which was used to bolt foxes out of their burrows. Her colouring was described as "...white, with just a patch of dark tan over each eye and ear; whilst a similar dot, not larger than a penny piece, marks the root of the tail." Davies, a friend of Russell's, wrote "Trump was such an animal as Russell had only seen in his dreams". She was the basis for a breeding program to develop a terrier with high stamina for the hunt as well as the courage and formation to chase out foxes that had gone to ground. By the 1850s, these dogs were recognised as a distinct breed.
An important attribute in this dog was a tempered aggressiveness that would provide the necessary drive to pursue and bolt the fox, without resulting in physical harm to the quarry and effectively ending the chase, which was considered unsporting. Russell was said to have prided himself that his terriers never tasted blood. This line of terriers developed by John Russell was well respected for those qualities, and his dogs were often taken on by hunt enthusiasts. It is unlikely, however, that any dogs alive today can be proven to be descendants from Trump, as Russell was forced to sell all his dogs on more than one occasion because of financial difficulty, and had only four aged (and non-breeding) terriers left when he died in 1883.
The Fox terrier and Jack Russell terrier type dogs of today are all descended from dogs of that period, although documented pedigrees earlier than 1862 have not been found, although several records remain of documented breeding by John Russell between the 1860s and 1880s. The Fox Terrier Club was formed in 1875 with Russell as one of the founder members; its breed standard was aspiration, and not a description of how the breed appeared then. By the start of the 20th century, the Fox terrier had altered more towards the modern breed, but in some parts of the country the old style of John Russell's terriers remained, and it is from those dogs that the modern Jack Russell type has descended.
Following Russell's death, the only people who made serious efforts to continue those strains were two men, one in Chislehurst with the surname of East, and another in Cornwall named Archer. East, at one point, had several couples, all of which were descended from one of Russell's dogs. The type aimed for were not as big as the show Fox terrier and were usually less than 15 pounds (6.8 kg)
Arthur Blake Heinemann created the first breed standard and, in 1894, he founded the Devon and Somerset Badger Club, the aims of which were to promote badger digging rather than fox hunting, and the breeding of terriers suitable for this purpose. Terriers were acquired from Nicholas Snow of Oare, and they were likely descended from Russell's original dogs, as Russell would probably have hunted at some point with Snow's hunting club and is likely to have provided at least some of their original terriers. By the turn of the 20th century, Russell's name had become associated with this breed of dog.
The club was later renamed the Parson Jack Russell Terrier Club. Badger digging required a different type of dog than fox hunting, and it is likely that Bull terrier stock was introduced to strengthen the breed, which may have caused the creation of a shorter legged variety of Jack Russell terrier that started to appear around this period. At the same time that a split was appearing between show and working Fox terriers, a further split was occurring between two different types of white terrier, both carrying Jack Russell's name. Heinemann was invited to judge classes for working terriers at Crufts with an aim to bring working terriers back into the show ring and influence those that disregard working qualities in dogs. These classes were continued for several years by various judges, but Charles Cruft dropped the attempt as the classes were never heavily competed. Following Heinemann's death in 1930, the kennel and leadership of the club passed to Annie Harris, but the club itself folded shortly before World War II

The Parson Russell Terrier is a breed of small white terrier that was the original Fox Terrier of the 18th century. The breed is named after the person credited with the creation of this type of dog, the Reverend John "Jack" Russell. It is the recognised conformation show variety of the Jack Russell Terrier and was first recognised in 1990 in the United Kingdom as the Parson Russell Terrier. In America, it was first recognised as the Jack Russell Terrier in 1997. The name was changed to its current form in 1999 in the UK and by 2008 all international kennel clubs recognised it under the new name.
A mostly white breed with either a smooth, rough or broken coat, it conforms to a narrower range of sizes than the Jack Russell. It is a feisty, energetic terrier, suited to sports and able to get along with children and other animals. It has a range of breed-related health issues, mainly relating to eye disorders
This breed shares a common history with the Jack Russell Terrier until the early 1980s.
This type of small white terrier dates back to the work of the Reverend John Russell, born in 1795. In 1819 he purchased a small white and tan female terrier named Trump from a milkman in the hamlet of Elmsford. She formed the basis for his breeding program, and by the 1850s the dogs were recognised as a distinct type of Fox Terrier.
In 1894, the Devon and Somerset Badger Club was founded by Arthur Blake Heinemann who created the first breed standard for this type of terrier. The club was formed with the aim of promoting badger digging, rather than fox hunting. By the turn of the 20th century, the name of John Russell had become associated with this type of terrier. The Devon and Somerset Badger Club would go on to be renamed the Parson Jack Russell Terrier Club and continued until just before World War II when the club folded.
The Jack Russell Terrier Club of Great Britain was established in 1974 as the parent club for the Jack Russell Terrier in the UK. The club has actively opposed recognition of the Jack Russell Terrier by Kennel Club (UK). In 1983, the Parson Jack Russell Terrier Club (PJRTC) was reformed with the aim of seeking Kennel Club recognition for the breed. The initial application was turned down, but after several further rejections, the Parson Jack Russell Terrier was recognised on 9 January 1990 as a variant of the Fox Terrier, with the United Kennel Club following suit in 1991. The American Kennel Club recognised the breed as the Jack Russell Terrier effective 1 November 1997.
On 1 August 1999, the PJRTC successfully petitioned the Kennel Club (UK) to change the name of the breed to the Parson Russell Terrier, with the name of the breed club following suit. The international kennel association, the Fédération Cynologique Internationale, recognised the Parson Russell Terrier on 4 June 2001.The American Kennel Club updated the name of the recognised breed from Jack Russell Terrier on 1 April 2003. The United Kennel Club adopted the new name on 23 April 2008.
The Australian National Kennel Council (ANKC), New Zealand Kennel Club and United Kennel Club (UKC) are the only three major kennel clubs to recognise both the Jack Russell Terrier and the Parson Russell Terrier separately. In 2009, there were 18 Parsons registered with the ANKC compared to 1073 Jack Russells.

Jack Russell Terrier