Working stock dogs Discussions

This argument has being going on for decades in the breed, it's the sad side to it. Is our breed not so versatile that it can adapt to any given situation. I'm not interested in KC or ISDS to be honest. What I'm interested in is that the breed stays healthy and is owned by the right people.
Most collies in this country all stem from the working collies originally. Go back generations in my dogs and they are ISDS. This argument started when the KC started to recognise the breed, it split the bc owners and has carried on down the years. It will continue on for years to come as well. I say each to their own. It's not showing versus working. That would be very narrow minded. There are many dogs that show that also work. That is an old conversation. Let the individual choose what lines they want and what type of temperament they want. There's room for us all. It's not like the dogs have changed beyond all recognition, there is a huge variety in look, trait etc.
One thing I hope we can all agree on is it is an honour to own one of these dogs and all our responsibilities to fill their needs the best we can.

What does that mean? If they are ISDS then they are 100% purely ISDS lines, there is no other way of getting a dog registered with the ISDS other than ROM. They would NEED to also be KC reg to enable them to compete at shows.

Been trying to word my response to your question and again someone else has put it in better words than I ever could have

Thanks Macman and excelllent post megan57

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick Macman. I wasn't talking of culling puppies that didn't make the grade or anything like that. All I said was that I read an interesting debate on which collies should be bred from - ie dogs that are used for working stock. Such litters would inevitably also produce pups suitable for a whole host of other activities.

As I have said on a number of occasions in this thread, I am playing Devil's Advocate (ie. the views are not necessarily my own!) to spark a good debate.

Perhaps an introduction would be a good way to start on Dogsey, rather than just charging into a debate.

The division between ISDS and KC will grow until there are two almost separate breeds. However to me, it doesn't matter! People will breed what they like. All it takes is to know about pedigrees and what you want from your dog.

People will always have different interests and aims, doesn't mean they are wrong. Live and let live and all that.

Another point I'd like to make is that show dogs can have just as much drive as working bred ones, and actually my ISDS dogs are very laid back and lazy when not working, that is what I think a Collie SHOULD be like and I wouldn't breed from one who wasn't. I know plenty of KC dogs who have no off switch and they would drive me INSANE! A friend once told me about some of her dogs which had plenty of drive but little trainability. Not an easy combination, they were show bred.

I agree with Alice, not everyone can work their dog and it IS cruel to start a dog then decide to stop training it and so on. Also one person's idea of proven is not the same as the next. In America one can obtain a herding "title" on a dog which follows sheep around sniffing their backsides. The UK is the home of the Border Collie and I hope we never lower ourselves to these pathetic herding tests and half baked titles.

Laura
Corrie Dhu Sheep Dogs

I meant just ISDS though or dual registered - so obviously dual registered.

The term 'culling' in breeding terms means removal from a breeding programme not actually killing. I rather assumed everyone knew that. In terms of the gene pool the affect is the same though.

Ok devil's advocate....off the fence...what IS your opinion then?

Dual registered really means nothing. Any ISDS BC can be registered with the KC, therefore dual registered, it's nothing special!

The only exception is if the bitch is over age or has too many litters then the KC won't register them but that has nothing to do with the dogs ancestory.

Laura
Corrie Dhu Sheep Dogs

I think you're getting hung up on the small print here. What difference does that ACTUALLY make...whether a dog is only ISDS or dual registered? ANY ISDS dog can be dual registered...international winners....the lot...

I really, really hope this doesn't happen. I like that you can do both if you want to, the versatility of the border collie, but if this happened I'd be afraid that we'd end up with the show line being thick and losing it's working traits, and the working stock being not an option to the average person who cannot work them on sheep. This would be so sad.

edit - Just re-read that and I'm definately not saying KC BCs are thick, I own one I just meant that you would lose the original working traits of the breed, the sharpness and the like, because people would be breeding for other things in conformation a lot of the time.

I'd disagree you can do both. The working BC has been bred for centuries to have what we have today, and for one reason alone - work. As soon as you breed for something else you compromise the dogs working ability.

That said, I don't see why people can't have a working lines dog if they want one. As I said before, mine are renowned for their extreme laziness and are very laid back until there is something to do. There are just as many manic KC as ISDS ones...

Laura
Corrie Dhu Sheep Dogs

OMG i cant believe youve just said that
. I know what i want & need & its a purpose bred Obedience lines dog.

Its not because i cant handle a working lines dog, but i want what i like . If you think that Ob lines dogs are "easy" would you like to meet mine?????????????;-)

How many ISDS dogs are OB Ch or Qualified to work ticket? there ARE some, but they are the exception most are Ob lines. Some people in ob ALWAYS want a ISDS dog, which is up to them!!!! Some people like to work a show line , again thats up to them! then others might want Obedience lines Obedience lines dogs are VERY high drive & not a easy option believe me, however a Obedience dog that is trained everyday & campaingned very weekend throughout the year up & down the country is a very special animal.

Out of interest, Flynn is 3/4s Ob lines, but has a ISDS line, his grandad is Int driving Ch Moss 127211 (JR Moss) & goes back to(gt gt gt Gparents) North Am Sup Ch Bill 102167, Int Sup Ch Craig 59425 & Int shep CH Don 73710.

Recently (ish)one of the most influential /successful use of a mix of ob & isds lines was the creation of the FABULOUS Gesviesha line, The dog was Daziels Wisp, What a fabulous line he produced too!

This is flynn "working"


This is Baby Mav "working"

Mav is sports Bred, His dad is WT CH Waggerland Mister Jake & his mum is the faboulous OB CH Danesway Double Delight @ forevermagic

I would like to correct a major misconception here.

The USBCHA (United Stated Border Collie Handlers Association) does not offer "titles" of any sort. The AKC (American Kennel Club) and other organizations do so, particularly in the "instinct or capability test" that they administer.

Trials sanctioned and recognized by USBCHA are ISDS-based (in general, as there are some arena-based trials, mainly cattle - that's another argument as to whether arena-based trials should be sanctioned) and are a challenging and a worthy test of working dog abilities.

Recognized and respected judges from Great Britain (including Raymond MacPherson, Thomas Longton, Charles Cutler, Bobby Dalziel, Derek Scrimgeour, and others) come over to judge some of the more prestigious trials here.

Thomas Longton expressed his opinion to me that the Kentucky Bluegrass Classic Sheepdog Trial was the equivalent of a National-level trial in the UK. Not exactly a butt-sniffing event at all.

Several UK judges that I have scribed for have described American-bred (many with near ancestors imported from the UK) as the equivalent in quality to UK-bred dogs but lacking in the experience (both dog and handler) that the shepherding/hill dog situation provides in the UK.

The recognition of "titles" and awards to those dogs that are little more than "butt-sniffers" is a hallmark of the kennel club mindset here when it comes to "working breeds". It is not an element at all of the USBCHA.

While USBCHA awards qualifying points for the National Finals (Sheepdog, Cattle, Nursery for both Sheepdog and Cattle) in sanctioned events, it does not recognize any of the "lower" level classes (other than to make insurance available to trial hosts) in any way, shape, or form. Regional clubs may offer a point system and awards at year's end for "lower" level classes, which are widely regarded as only stepping stones towards Open.

Please, don't condemn the working Border Collie and its supporters in the US (and Canada, by association) by association with the "standards" and "titles" that are the domain of the kennel club.

As for the split between working-bred and conformation/show/performance-bred dogs, I believe they are already (for all practical purposes) two different breeds. It's too bad that that isn't recognized by the non-working-bred dogs being renamed to reflect the fact that they are not bred for the same purposes/qualities/traits as the working-bred Border Collie/Working Sheepdog.

Hi Sue, I don't think CorrieDhu was in anyway denegrating the quality of US working/trials dogs...merely pointing out the AKC mindset as you have confirmed it yourself. The point being that in the UK, our KC does not have the sort of 'titles' mentioned and it would be a sad day for the breed if they ever did! The true purpose and skill of a working BC is something that I would imagine almost all BC enthusiasts in the UK appreciate and value and continue to hold dear. There certainly isn't the divide between show/sports/working here that can be seen in North America although there is bound to be the odd extremist

It does worry me that the KC may be thinking about 'closing the door' on the ISDS at some point :-( I think while the option to combine lines is still available the breed is pretty safe :smt002 but I wouldn't like to see the KC and ISDS separate, if that did occur then the dual registered dogs would be extremely important....how many people would keep up that dual registration though down the generations I really don't know??

Firstly I have never bred and possibly never will unless I feel my dog or bitch has something to contribute, therefore there would be no reason for me to know that culling in breeding terms doesn't actually mean killing. There are already too many breeders churning out puppies litter after litter.

Off the fence, my opinion is that I personally am only interested in ISDS registered border collies from working parents. However, as long as litters are bred responsibly and ethically and with every effort made to find the right homes then I cannot criticise.

Yes, I may have only been in the breed for the past few years, but feel I have learned enough about working dogs in that time to qualify to give my opinion. Sorry if you don't like that.

I never said obedience line dogs were "easy" at all. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I hardly think you'd need to be a 'breeder' to appreciate terminology, just dog savvy but that is pretty irrelevant anyway.

Where exactly did all that come from then??? I thought the point was you WEREN'T giving your 'qualified opinion'....just playing devil's advocate I neither like nor dislike it, frankly couldn't give a monkies but YOU started and asked for contribution to this debate and we have all just obliged.

You still haven't actually given your opinion on whether or not only proven working dogs should be bred from though?? Which I believe was the initial question.

The rather snide remark you made about a "born again novice" prompted my response.