Wolf Dog article General Chat

Of course public perception may not agree with you and that is also part of the problem. Many people are not experienced enough to be able to identify a dog by phenotype alone; this is one of the major problems in the USA where a sibe x mal may be identified by an animal control officer as a wolfdog and is therefore illegal though as a sibe x mal would be perfectly legal but has less street cred for the owner. I am reminded of the case about two years ago when a pedigree sibe (with papers) was seized in the USA after having been identified as a wolfdog and the animal was due to be put down.

With wolf being crossed into both dog and Czech wolfdogs as has already happened in the UK then the degree of uncertainty as to the 'real' pedigree of animals will only lead to speculation amongst the public and it will probably lead to situation similar to the one we have with pit-bull 'types'.

Perhaps it became apparent by those that were breeding cross breeds fairly early on that the Saarloos and Czech were less suitable for a mass market and that by creating a so called hybrid would widen the appeal.

In contrast to the UK; I am used to going to dog shows in France and seeing Saarloos and Czechs (in very small numbers) amongst the sibes, mals, baucerons, staffies etc. In truth the two wolfdog breeds remain very much niche market animals and have limited popularity with the public.

The Saarloos in the UK will also be a niche market dog rather than a commercial product and I can see it already moving that was. The Czech, I think, will become more popular (but in limited numbers) as it is more versatile. Of course in France any mention of crossing with a wolf would require a licence (f3 or otherwise) and that licence is almost impossible to obtain.

Yes Im sure it is, but I feel that these breeds are and should be a "niche market" they are new and I think the new owners and breeders need to find their feet and get more experience with the breeds before folk come along and mix a breed they in my opinion do not fully understand, the Saarloos and the Czech as far s I can see (and I do not have any personal experience so I may be wrong) are two totally different temperaments bred for totally different jobs, but both with recent wolf input and as the gene pools are closed retain the input of wolf genes... I would imagine a lot of hard work has gone on in the establishment of these breeds to ensure the temperament was good etc etc.... and I feel that still these breeds are young and fragile and not "set" enough to encourage people who are as you say making them "commercial" if people want a popular pet to sell to families as a family pet then it should not have the amount of questions.. With the wolflike the breeds used have been established for many many years, they can be traced back for generations, temperament, health etc can be checked... people know what to expect in all the breeds in their own right ie the Mal, the Husky and the GSD, we know that mixing the breeds together will have a mix of temperament for a few generations...but we know what the mix could produce by the traits known of the founder breeds... and we inform any one interested in them of this.

They cannot do that with the Czech or Saarloos as the breeds are too young, they have recent content so you have the worry of Instinct overtaking pet, the worry of the different natures mixing...

Just my opinion

hmm probably gonna be shot down for this but..........
without experience i find it hard for you to comment really:? the crossbreeds you are refering to (ute and n.i) have been around far less time than the csv and are just that,any breed can have individuals with bad temprement.the csv was bred to look wolfie but not to have wolf traits,it is a working dog very much along the lines of the mallinois
the csv has wolf blood but is not a wolf hybrid..comments like yours ..'the instinct taking over the pet' well???
i do feel with the n.i ute people it is also a case of sour grapes if the csv and saarloos had been available im sure many of you would of started with them(be honest);-)

The Czech dates from the 1950s and is a well established breed, even if not recognised internationally until recently. The standard for the Czech lists some wolf behaviour as a fault; specifically the wolf shyness (that in contrast is acceptable in the Saarloos standard). But it is well known that 'shyness' does appear in some CSV.

The Saarloos breeding program started in 1928 so its development is older than some better known breeds its character is well understood. What makes it unsuitable to many is more its complex character rather than its prey drive (which is strong). I think the genetic inheritance is misunderstood.

My Doberman was able to chase and bring down a young deer many years ago and yet the Doberman would not spring to mind if you asked for a list of high prey drive dogs.

The real problems come with first generation wolf crosses (or similar high percentage). The wolf is a wild animal and may not respect humans in the way a domestic animal would. Wolves have a strict social order and a complex language which includes dominance and submission that may not be fully understood by dogs. By crossing the wolf and dog predatory instincts towards people, children and animals may come to the fore. Many experts say the mix is most dangerous because of the dog content, which might allow the predatory instinct and capabilities of the wolf to come to the fore but without the wolfs natural inhibitions and shyness. Then when a human tries to be the boss, the animal may be far less tolerant than a dog would be. That is when it becomes unpredictable and dangerous.

And the huge pricetag makes them all the more 'exclusive' so people will want them like the latest designer label.

Most people could not manage a saarloos, csv or wolf hybrid, IMO and they should not be available to any Tom, Dick or Harry who has the cash to buy one. Good breeders will vet prospective homes, but bad breeders will jump on the bandwagon.

I agree with both your points..Tupac I have no personal experience but I do know that last year a Saarloos escaped built a den and had her pups...another had to be destroyed this is what I mean by instinct kicking in.... the breeds I mentioned Mal, GSD and Husky are so far away from the wolf but each has its own instinct ...they are all animals after all...wheras the instincts they portray can be managed by owners.... the Czech was bred as an attack or guard dog was it not....

I have no problem with both these dogs as breeds in their own right as I think they are lovely and somewhat challenging, I have the same opinion that some pedigree breeds are not suitable family pets because of their instincts and behavior, my point is they are being mixed together or with other crosses.... and as you say NI and Ute are not established yet, so how on earth do the breeders maintain the temperament required for a family pet...

Would you think in your own experience that crossing a Saarloos with a Czech is a good mix? Do you think that these breeds need crossed? I would think it is more detrimental to the breeds than anything else?

I know they have been bred for a along time but they used to need a license so therefore they are a small breed in comparison to the afore mentioned and there are far more people with experience and a history of the breeds mentioned the behaviourists, vets etc in this country do not have a good background of experience and neither do the breeders concerned in this thread so no I am sorry I dont think its a good idea.

There have been at least 3 attacks on their owners from Czech x NIs that I know of, so to me this is proof that their are issues...I wouldnt say what side the issues have came from but state again it is the mix.

I have Utes, a cross and a Beardie now I can see different instincts in all of them... is this not what we use to breed dogs wit certain traits.... all natural instincts which in my opinion originate from the wild where every breed has came from, they however have been bred to hone in on what the breeders wanted out of their dogs... mixing breeds to create a look is fine as long as all these things are taken into consideration, mixing 2 breeds with conflicting temperaments could spell disaster....over confidence being one....as Czechs where bred to be confident and NIs or Utes are bred using Mals and Huskies (originally) you can see already where problems will arise...

I am still not convinced that Czechs or Saarloos make good pets in a family home in the middle of a town.... but I am open minded and await to proven wrong, I am basing my opinions o what I have heard and read from owners and breeders, but where this crossing them all over the place to acheive a look well Its an accident waiting to happen

Personally, I see no reason to cross a Saarloos with a Czech; I see no advantage to either breed. But I have met a few NI x czech and NI x Saarloos and have to say the animals were lovely; possibly not for everybody though.

hi
yes ,but that so could of been a husky that did that too :?
and you could say the pet thing about gsd's bc's for example or any large working breed,
in europe csv's are not in such a minority.
also i do not think they should be crossed, but i dont see why you have a prob with csv's being used but are ok with gsd's as they are meant to be confident too:?
you say there has been 3 bites from csv x n.i ?? why does that have to be because of the csv?
but i am with you on the crossing thing ;-) why cross at all,you know where you are relatively with a pure breed(what to expect temprement wise) hence i wanted a csv and not a cross that looks like a csv.
i also think the wolfdog bit of the csv's name should be changed to vlack as alot of the stigma comes from the name too.
i love the breed, but with any breed its down to the owner to behave responsibly ;-)

eta... no i dont see what would be achieved by crossing a saarloos and a csv :? :?

As you refer to our dogs as cross breeds I can see exactly where your opinion lies personally I call them a new breed in the midst of creation...the NI far more established than the Ute. Even more of a reason not to mix them with a WolfDog especially considering both breeds are trying to establish a look a like NOT a wolfdog, the reason being we do want to fill the demand for the look without selling a breed that is a more specialised breed, surely you can see where I am coming from here we are creating what we hope to be a good family dog suitable to live in the social lifes we have now...

I know the Czech has been stated to retain 20% wolf genes as the gene pool closed at such so they are higher content than all the breeds I mentioned, hence their behaviour is not the same.Their power is not the same.... They need to be promoted by those with a lot of experience that have maintained what the purpose of them was, this is why they are recognised is it not? So why want to cross them?

I really do not know why you feel I have sour grapes about your breed I do not. As I have said on various posts I really quite like both breeds, quite obviously as I like the look but more so I like a dog that is a challenge, but I do not live in an environment I feel would be fair to them and I also wouldnt breed them in this country with the way they have been introduced over here. I remember reading all the cry wolf posts on how different the behaviour is in a wolfdog, Charlie commented that the Saarloos would rather take flight than challenge, "unless cornered" I did ask the question is putting a dog of this nature in a small house not cornering it?? I still await the reply....

If the ambassadors of the breeds cant answer pertinent questions like this then I am sorry I have a lot of doubt that they actually have strength in their convictions.

I have sour grapes as you put it that these breeds have been brought over here, they are new in this country as a pet...ie they dont need a special license and these supposed experienced people that are giving all the new owners advise have crossed them on many occasions now and are still selling them as family pets when I just dont see how they know what they are selling...
1 they have very little experience
2 the crosses havent been done before
3 Both breeds retain wolf content...

I hope this clarifies my thoughts

Hi Sorry I went out to the dogs in between posts and hadnt read your last one

Glad we agree on the crossing thing

hi
firstly... i have an n.i and it is easier for me to explain her as a cross to people,so please do not be offended by that.
what do you mean their power and behaviour is not the same? have you met many pure pet csv's?
why do you think this 'domestic dog breed' requires a licence over others?
also,i find that certain people make alot out of the wolfblood content..... selling point maybe?

The term 'wolfdog' has always been problematic. In the 1930s there was a big thing of it made in the UK press which led to some questions in parliament; this related to Alsation x wolves. The Alsatian wolfdog (now the GSD) became banned or heavily taxed in some countries around this time.

Whats in a name? The Czechoslovakian wolfdog or Ceskoslovenský Vlciak or Czechoslovakian wolf. Of course as patrons of the breed the Slovakians resent the name being abbreviated to 'Czech'.

Personally I have no issue with the term 'wolfdog' being used in conjunction with these two breeds as it does represent their genetic origin. They are breeds and as such have a specific character, this is tied in to their genetic make up as in any breed that has been created by artificial selection. That people buy them without seriously researching their individual characters is a reflection of the people and the to a degree the people that sell them. I think there has been much misinformation about these breeds perpetuated by people with too little experience.

The original subject of this thread is an article about high percentage wolf crosses. The original breeder of the two wolf pups sent from the USA a few years ago is convinced that they were needed to improve the ailing health of the Czechoslovakian wolfdog breed. He seems to be under the impression that the CSV was suffering from severe problems and that the Europeans turned to the USA for help. Somewhat naive perhaps?

Ok I dont mind then

The power is an assumption that the wolf jaws bite is nearly double what a domestic dog is, therefore to increase the percent wolf blood would no doubt increase the power of the other dog used the GSD. I also think that all large breeds should require a license to ensure they where looked after properly but thats another issue.

I assume the license was required due to the wolf genes in the breed and now Defra have decided they are a domestic dog as they have came on far enough to be so.

I really would love to meet pet Czch wolfdogs so I could form an informed decision as all I have to go on is what I have read written may I add by the people in the article in question

I just dont trust the opinions of these people and they have a great responsibility to the future of the wolfdogs that are recognised. I would like to see Saarloos, Czech wolf dog to do well, with the right owners and careful breeders, I would also like people to know the difference between a wolfdog, and a dog bred to look like a wolf, not only for the welfare of the dogs but also to stop all the confusion by insurance companies, behaviourists, vets etc

And I would really like to meet some in the flesh...

Alady... i f you are ever down south you can visit Tupac anytime,he comes to the surgery with me ;-)

i do feel you need to meet some as the view you have to me,is that i have a pet wolf believe me my sibes would do better in the wild then Tupac,and going by Kaos thats not too good! lol.
Tupac is a domestic dog, but his genes contain 26.66% wolfblood....people love him ,they dont judge him by his blood content:? ,most people dont know what breed he is.

eta.. i mean no offence,im just not too good at writing!;-)

Thank you very much, I would love to if ever near you