Why not a Dutch shepherd Discussions

define 'working abilities' .......

this dog came from one of my females he is a licensed police cadaver dog in the u.s.a not a pedigree chum dog

now that tells me a lot about ur self

define 'working abilities' .......

1/ Service Dog
2/ assistance dogs
3/ sheep dogs

could go on all yr but this should help you i hope what about ur photos of u and all ur dogs and the stuff u said u do .

I've bred have worked as SAR dogs and competed in Agility and Obedience and I'm now working my 3rd generation of therapy dogs trained to work with autistic kids -
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my sister has two SAR dogs so i could put some photos up ? oh i breed one of them but not for SAR for a ppdog funny old life the way some things trun out any way you dream but dont sleep

Gosh that dog doesn't look at all like the working type. Off to have a look at the website.

think it could do with a good feed my self

http://www.vanleeuwen-hollandseherders.nl/

Right - I am getting tired of hearing the "my dog's job is better than your dog's job" argument, especially with regard to Belgian and Dutch Shepherds.

The clue is in the name....

Unless your dog is actually working sheep, you can't claim it is 'doing what it was bred to do'.

Both the Dutch and Belgians started life as SHEEP herders (and cattle too I am sure). And many of them retain that instinct.

Dog showing started at about the same time as Ringsport, if not before, but there were also early herding trials for BSDs and some of the breed founders scored well on that.

Can we not agree to disagree - especially as the breeds are not used as sheep dogs any more - that those who show have every much as right as those who "work" the dogs in jobs that the breed originally did not do.

I have respect for both camps. I love to see BSDs and DH/HH working, equally I love to see them as companions, Obedience dogs, Agility dogs, even Heelwork to music dogs, and a BSD in the ring is no less a BSD to me, especially as I know that so-called 'show lines' of BSDs can and do produce Assistance dogs, Military/Police dogs, as well as those who excel at "sport".

It pained me to hear a working dog person describe show-type Malinois as "ugly". It so happens that the Working type Malis are not to my taste in looks, but surely it's their ability that counts?

I have met some of Bijou's dogs and they have a wonderful temperament, she is actively breeding for both looks AND temperament to create a line of assistance dogs, probably the only BSD breeder in the UK currently doing this, and I would have one of her pups in a heartbeat - to be a companion but potentially also to enjoy hobby sports, and maybe to be a PAT support dog which is something I have wanted to do for several decades.

As I live in an area with quite a few sheep farmers, there's also the chance my dog might also get to do what his ancestors were FIRST bred for

We should be celebrating the many things these breeds CAN do, not arguing.

PS: Some of you know I also own an elderly working-type Malinois, almost certainly not born in this country. I wish she could talk! She has clearly spent a lot of her life kennelled, is spayed, but from careful exploration I have found she was once trained to do bitework. She is is calm and steady in almost all situations. Plus she is the sweetest and most affectionate dog you can imagine.

Well said. I'd also add that there are excellent breeders in both areas and also very bad and irresponsible ones.

The show Dutchie looks quaint, pretty, with a look of fragility. The working specimen, looks rugged, handsome and sturdy.

Horses for courses - so long as the dogs are being bred with health and temperament above all else, it doesn't matter except to the person wishing to buy and take one of the dogs into their home/life.

Sturdy doesn't come into it with these breeds. They started out as light-framed with the ability for speed.

Legend has it that they are the result of native sheepdogs crossed with a sighthound such as Deerhound in the Middle Ages, which gave the slender frame and wire coat (in the wirehaired versions) but also the reactivity and mental speed.

They needed that to control the sheep in large unenclosed areas. Unlike the Border Collie which worked in hilly or rough areas, the original Dutch and Belgians were working in large fields on flat ground in country only defined by drainage dykes which sheep and dogs could easily jump.

They needed to be agile enough to jump dykes, fast enough to catch up with sheep that ran ahead on the flat ground, and also willing to swim across rivers and larger dykes if necessary. Their job was not to herd as much as contain or move or drive. Trouble is when we think of sheepdogs we think of BCs and how they work, but there are other ways sheepdogs work in other countries and have done so for millenia.

A smaller, lighter-framed dog worked best in Belgium and Holland - no need for heavy bone or sturdiness... they needed metal ability above all else, speed and instant mental & physical acumen. The early photos of BSDs show a dog not unlike working BCs but longer in the leg, almost a hybrid between a sighthound and a collie.

They also do not need sturdiness to take down people when used for bitework - the speed is enough. A very small lightly built Mali only 21" at the shoulder [=Border Collie size] can do the job given the right attitude and training.

If you spend any time with these dog Azz, whether show type or not, you will develop a respect for their mental ability, and they don't need to be working dogs for that to come through.

But in time things change, as seen here. There is a tangible difference between the show-type and the working type.

I don't think it matters what anyone else thinks what's 'better' - so long as health & temperament is not neglected - it's just personal taste.

Some things don't change Azz. The DS/Malis are still slender, speedy dogs, they have never been stocky or sturdy. Working folk sometimes say show Malis are too big, they don't mean too heavy just too tall, the proportion and bone is the same.

I know you're used to a heavier breed - just put size and physical build aside if you will - if you met some DS/Malis in I think you may be underwhelmed.....lol

Totally agree. Thinking about how my show line groenendaels look when they come out of the sea, bath, wet rainy walk

LOL yes Abbie - skinny whippets! Even Merly who is a BC/BSD cross and is broader in body and head than a pure BSD. It was the elegance and fine bone, that first hooked me as I always loved sighthounds but discounted them because I wanted a dog I could train...

But one quick shake and they're instantly bouffant again ...and twice the size

As for temperament and bite, it may affect less whether a dog can be taught bite work, than it should affect whether that dog should be taught bite work.

I declined a puppy I went to see once when the rather nervous bitch snapped in my face without provocation. The breeder found an excuse to remove her at that point and appeared to hope I wouldn't have noticed the snap!

Against a Presa most breeds will seem slender ..lol

Oh Yes

I was laughing at the woman in the pet shop a few weeks ago when I took Kye in to be weighed. She was shocked at how such a big dog could weigh so little until she realised it was all coat!!

Presa's look the same whether soaking wet or dry

Well said
In other breeds most often when we say 'working line' we mean dogs who are still doing the job they were bred for
If the actual job no longer exists then do we really have working line dogs of that breed?

I am not trying to do a disservice to the dogs who do a great job with the army, police, or any of the other ways they help our species

But training bite work or whatever and a dog who is good at that is not actually breeding for the correct temprament of the breed - the origonal purpose of the breed

It is great that the dogs have found their own new place where they excel, but saying their temprament or build is more correct that is not the case, the dogs are being selected for for a different skillset than you would want from the dog working sheep
Not saying that is a bad thing, personally I think it is correct right and natural that we adapt breeds to fit the jobs we wish for them in the ever changing world - that is what we have done all along

But no point getting into a snobbery saying 'my type of this dog who no longer does its origonal job is better than your type of this dog who no longer does its origonal job'

breeding for both looks AND temperament to create a line of assistance dogs same was said a bout the GS,