White Boxers Questions

Good advice kathy, I'll remember that. I do much prefer dogs of all breeds to have as little white as possible, not least for the associated health risks.

:smt009 :smt089 :smt089 it is so sad that in this day an age ppl still think that all white boxers are either deaf or blind or both . ive seen loads of white boxers and there is only a small few of them ive seen that were blind or deaf the oldest one i saw was 9 he was at my vets a few months ago for a general check up . the lady rescued him from a breeder who was going to drown him in a bucket because he said it wasn worth feeding . so sad .

Ah yes I see I'm not surprised to hear that not all agree on the bobtail issue. This is a much more controversial area. But on the subject of colour related deafness in the Boxer, I'd be impressed if you could find someone more qualified to give an opinion

Well I'm at a loss to understand why this is done, considering the associated risk of deafness, but I suppose to look at it objectively, there is no higher risk in this than the normal breeding of Dalmatians.

but does this not depend on wether your bitch is a plain from a plain x plain litter ,i had a plain bitch from a plain x plain litter go to a flashy dog and got 1 white and 1 flashy

Ok, this is what I meant by -

"If you could ensure that every litter of Boxers born from now on had at least one plain parent, no more whites would be born. Ok it's not quite that simple, there are other factors which alter the expression,"

The white patches are areas of the skin that the melanocytes (pigment cells) have not reached in foetal development. This migration is controlled to a large extent by the genes for white patching ie the S locus...... BUT, there are other modifying genes that also influence this migration and so alter the expression of the S locus.

Also, melanocyte migration is somewhat random, so not entirely under genetic control but that's a whole new topic.

So you could in effect get a dog that was phenotypically (looks) plain, but genetically flashy (S sw), so carrying the 'gene' for white and so will produce white if mated to another genetic flashy.

This is the most likely explanation for your white zoe and the fact that both parents of your plain bitch were also plain, indicates that one of those was also a flashy in disguise.

thanx for that theres a lot to be said for breedeing from your own homebred dogs as you know what they may produce ,thanx id love to learn more on the genetics,of colour,:?

:smt023 i also will be brushing up on the genetics of colour thanx guys fantastic reading and info as always

poor babies pts just because of colour :-(

i wont profess to fully understand genetics im still learning that bit some good info for me to read thru

i breed bull terriers (english) and as white is prefered colour of most people its a good thread

i dont personally like to do white to white UNLESS one white is a cbw (colour bred white eg coloured parent x white parent) then i find i dont loose the white but dont get pigment probs
white to white to white etc is not something i would do myself
however the thing with bullies is if its a deaf bullie they are hard enough to have as a totally normally hearing dog let alone a deaf bullie i have had two people i know who have taken deaf white bullies gave them a chance at life etc and both sadly ended up pts at a later date due to aggresion problems which again is prevelant in bullies
(i would never breed from any dog with aggresive tendancies.. i have my children to think of and would never knowingly breed from a problem dog)

i believe no matter what breed you have if its a white pup or even all white litter as we often get then do the right thing bear test the pups at the earliest oppertunity .. you cannot possibly second guess a pup will be deaf or even uni unless you bear test

to have not given them pups a chance is terrible they could have gone on to be normally hearing dogs at any rate
and have had a happy life
im sorry but the person breeding the litter should have known more about what they were doing so then not allowed the litter to be culled before knowing facts
i feel a lot of vets are very much lacking in knowledge of specific breeds i know i have taught my vet a think or two about heath tests available and other things about bullies (good job i have a great vet who knows i can sometimes know stuff he doesnt lol )

rip poor babies

Exactly - a solid dog is one of mainly the same colour with little light markings [note I say light and not white]. Should we not then think along the lines that White Boxers should be deemed as "solids".

Intriging thoughts.

Owners nowdays are much more forward thinking. You can go out and pay hundreds for a puppy [of any breed] and still want no more from that puppy than love and companionship. Very few of puppies sold are bought by owners to show compared to those bought for family pets and companions. To the pet owner it makes little to no difference whether the dog is white or coloured.

The white Boxer is not a poor relation. It is a beautiful dog in its own right and deserves to be recognised as such.

Angel

my first boxer ever was a solid white she was lovely and thats what started my life long love of boxers she was beautifull,and we still have a white today they are all lovely and i always say ,why persicute for the colour because thats all it is is a colour,

I do think its right to classify white predominants/all whites of all non-naturally white breeds as having a major fault for the show ring to help prevent people deliberately breeding for white as the the potential for deafness should be avoided not encouraged, but outside of the ring of course they should be treated as the same lovely dogs for personality and character as every other colour :smt001
[ Three of my Collies are genetic deaf whites ].

I'm far from a regular poster on here I am afraid, I do have a look now and again. What a sad story, I thought that the myth regarding deafness and blindness was dissapearing or that people were no longer living in the dark ages!

For anyone interested the following link makes for a good read:

http://home.online.no/~hennilu/English/Information/white/index.htm

Makes a change for a document such as the above to actually contain some research which is all to often lacking when people start talking about deafness in whites and supposed higher incidences of "health problems"

Very sad to hear about the two poor white babies who lost their lives through shear ignorance.

Regards

GB

A very interesting read ginger boy thanx xxdk

The above is true, however now the docking ban is here you'll be surprised at the number of people now breeding for bobtails...
Also some people do disagree with Dr C on health issues too...

Yes I've had the 'pleasure' of coming accross this person before and we've locked horns on the bobtail debate.
The debate then just gets down to sillyness...like bobtails apparently keel over after pooping .. mine don't..
Claims to have no health problems at all in her lines too.

With regard to flashy/solid debate.
I mated a flashy bitch to a flashy dog fully expecting whites. But the ratio I got in a litter of 7 pups were 4 white, 2 flashy, 1 solid. 1 of my whites was pts at 3 days old as she kept going blue and despite all our efforts it was plain to see she wasn't going to make it
All 3 surviving whites were hearing and seeing.

I think some deafness does also seem to run in families,
know of a 'breeder' who had white puppies culled as when she kept them they were deaf..happened in a mother and daughter pairing she had. She's not an ethical breeder nor that concerned about health

Most Boxer breeders these days do not cull whites.
I think the only breed club that has strict code of ethics in regards to whites is the midland boxer club (although they may have changed their stance by now). The breed clubs used to advise the culling of white puppies to breeders.
Hence why some people felt they had to cull.
Nowadays things are much more relaxed - the KC will register whites (I KC registered and endorsed my white's progeny not eligible for registration - with signed puppy contracts. Primarily so people could also take part in agility or obedience if they so chose. ALso so people could see they meant as much to me as thier coloured siblings).

It is very sad about the two white puppies.
I wonder if the breeder was 'old school'?

Also some used to cull puppies if the litter was felt too large for the bitch to cope with. They'd cull whites and any mismarks etc.. again a practise which isn't done so often today.

Hi Boxacrazy. Could I ask, about the breed clubs... is there any guidance given on colour breeding to reduce the incidence of whites occurring? Ie. do they actively encourage the use of solids in breeding?

To be honest I've not checked recently.
I know that the solid classes were one way of the breed clubs trying to promote the solid as both a show dog and the potential positives of not producing white's unnecessarily when some find them so undesireable that they want them culled.

Sadly not many breed clubs put these classes on now. They seem to have fallen by the wayside some what. Whereas you used to get solid puppy classes and an open class in both sexes now it's just the one mixed class. :-(
I know that Working & Pastoral Breeds Ch show used to classify the solid classes too but not the last time that I showed there.

Most knowledgeable breed people have a basic genetic grounding on what they have to do to not produce white puppies if they find them so undesireable. It's whether they
choose to exercise that knowledge ;-)

There have been plenty of articles produced over the years that I have been involved in showing Boxers (18 years) with regard to genetics. But it in turn is my job to 'educate' others when they don't know any different or at least point them in the right direction. But as the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink ;-)

My current litter lived up to the genetic expectations on colour/markings. Although we did have a nice surprise that mum produced reds. We weren't sure if she carried the red gene or not as she is brindle as was her sire. Her mum was brindle that carried the red gene. I used a solid red bobtail male and got 7 pups, 4 reds and 3 brindles. 3 definately solid (white confined to chest and toes) one that Dr C isn't sure who could be a solid although appears to have been a moderate flashy marked dog at birth. Plus 3 flashy marked pups. Plus I got in the litter 2 bobtails and 5 long tailed pups.

Thanks, very interesting

I know it is difficult sometimes trying to distinguish solids from flashies. Hopefully soon we'll have the white genes identified and any that are not phenotypically obvious, can be determined by DNA.

How disheartening that learned professional people will deprive a puppy of life because of colour.

Why would you want to eliminate the white gene. ? How long would it be then before every white coloured dog no matter the breed was in danger of being eliminated because of its colour. I too have heard of the lady in the USA who has bred [and shown, yes shown] white Boxers over the years. She claims never to have had one deaf pup in all her litters. She has fought long and hard for recognition for the white Boxer and fair play to her.

Before anyone leaps at me I dont condone breeding of whites. I know someone who has an outstanding looking dog and if he were a brindle or tan, he would clear the tables of any show.