Which breed! Discussions

I would really think about what you can truly handle in a dog not just today but ten years down the road.

A dog with a high prey drive who is also on the stubborn side can be painful. My Moose-dog and Bat-dog were mighty lizard hunters. They didn't chase other animals, but if they saw a lizard, they pulling me off my feet. None of their training stopped them from going after a lizard. It really made me realize that as I get older I need to consider the combination of power, drive and tenacity in any dog I get. Tornado-dog has the power and tenacity, but his drive easily reigned in.

T

That’s why I was looking for a breed between 40 and 70 lbs approximately (18-31 Kg approximately) a bit over or under probably wouldn’t make a big difference though.

The Belgians are listed in breed standards as being 60-70lbs the Airedale 40-60 the German Shepherd 65-85 lbs the Schnauzer 35-45 lbs and the Pinscher 25-40 lbs (I went through most of my schooling before we switched to metric so I usually measure in imperial measures lbs ounces inches etc)

I dropped the Giant Schnauzer, Doberman, Rottweilers and Beauceron because they can and often do exceed 100lbs weight.

Then I eliminated breeds under 40 lbs and narrowed it to the initially mentioned breeds GSD, Airedale, Begian Shepherd breeds, the standard schnauzer and German Pinscher.

My most important criteria is protective instincts,intelligence, trainability and weight range (trainability and intelligence buying my make or break traits because I aspire to obedience titles).

I figure even 20 years from now I should be able to handle dogs in the 40-70 lb range. I’ll only be early 70s then. Time enough for smaller dogs when I’m older (like in my 80s in the far-ish future). As I said I always wanted a GSD growing up so I could bear to leave it off the list in spite of its weight (I know some gilet into the 90s and some breeders even try for bigger like king shepherd breeders).

(add on oops at quoting myself but I’m leaving it so what I said will still show that’s what I get for posting at midnight)

Protective - can't really be predetermined. Every dog has the potential to be protective, but there is no given that ant dog, regardless of breed, will be protective. The best is to build as strong a bond as possible with whatever dog you get.

Sound the alert - Most dogs will sound the alert as long as they feel secure. My Cat-dog never did until Tornado-dog came and gave her more self-confidence.

Tripping hazard - size isn't really a factor. My Moose-dog was tall. He also had a habit of stopping directly in front of me. I tripped over him a lot. His sister Bat-dog was half his height and I rarely if ever tripped over her.

Smart/intelligent - the dogs that hit highest on that are border collies, JRTs, poodles, and huskies. Of those, poodles are the easiest to work with. Border collies would be second. Both are eager to please. JRTs tend to be tenacious - redirecting is a temporary distraction, they will remember and return to what they were doing. Huskies are smarter than you and take a perverse pleasure in proving it at every opportunity - which is pretty much all the time. Aussies can be flaky.

Now, few dogs are stupid. Some are tenacious, some are stubborn, some are independent. A less intelligent breed who is eager to please will often be a better choice than a more intelligent dog.

Following people/affection - a dog known for independence, eg huskies, can be a bit aloof. They may not show affection well. An eager to please dog is most likely to show affection. For inbetween dogs, building the bond will make the difference. Most herding/livestock breeds will be more immune to "here puppy puppy" as they are bred to stay with the herd no matter what. Obedience training, ensuring your yard is secure, adding a separation between the dog's outside area and the road will all work to curtail roaming and following people/dogs.

Cold weather - most of the dogs on your list will do fine. The dobie would be most susceptible. The airdale would be next. Poodles and border collies will be fine.

Skip the pompom cut on the standard poodle and they are good looking dogs.

There’s 1 thing I never mentioned I strongly dislike Labrador retrievers. Other then them I like most breeds ( though some characteristics of some are a different story like boxers bouncing themselves onto people to happily greet them).

All the Labs I ever met were halfways insane like picking up a 2 by 4 by 8? Foot garden edger piece of wood and carrying it to their owner as if she’d throw it for them (my cousins lab) or else too clingy constantly pressing so hard on true peoples bodies they almost knock them over (service dogs excepted).
Labs are the one breed I could honestly say I hate (though I hate to say it since there could be redeeming qualities in them that their owners get to see and I haven’t seen).

I once saw a man walking his golden through the neighborhood. The golden was carrying a 5ft long tree limb (not stick or branch - a fullfledged tree limb) happily at his side.

Retrievers retrieve. It's what they do.

I

I get they retrieve but a big as piece of wood that wasn’t thrown was sitting in the ground there 1/4 buried? That I don’t get. How is it retrieving if the weren’t told to get it and it wasn’t thrown or anything?

With regards to big as I was specifically thinking of my cousin’s dog not the man you described.

to me retrieve requires a command to do get it or fetch (like if a duck fell to the grass in duck hunting) the dog would be told to find or such. It’s not a retrieve if the dog just randomly picks up something and carries it around from my point of view that’s almost link e saying a kid sitting behind the wheel in a parked car honking the horn is driving.

In order for dog to be a good retriever, he must do several things:
1. find the bird
2. pick up the bird
3. hold the bird gently without puncturing its flesh
4. return with the bird
5. release the bird.

Watch a beginning utility class. There will be some dogs who will pick up the dumbbell on the first run without any hesitation. Then there will be the owner who is on his hands and knees begging the dog to just touch the dumbbell with its mouth.

Breeding retrievers that instinctually find and pick up objects gives the dog and handler a headstart in the training process. Instead of having to spend weeks teaching the dog to pick up objects with its mouth, the handler can focus on teaching them to wait for the find command and the return and release.

So, family pet retrievers who aren't out retrieving for hunters or working utility, will find stray objects around the yard to carry. They bring it to their owners because they are proud of themselves. Its instinct that has been bred into them.

I used to have Goldens in the 1960's and '70's. I'm sure it must be down to the improvement in training methods but the hardest dog that I ever taught to retrieve was a Golden. Super obedience dog but couldn't show her as her retrieve was so unpredictable.
Re. Breeding Obedience/Trials dogs. I don't think a UD would make anyone want to use a dog at stud, unless he was successful in the showring too, and the qualification demonstrated Fitness for Purpose. I would say that in the UK most, but not all, male dogs in obedience are neutered.
I wish you well with your ambition, but it is a long hard road paved with experience, and I think it is unrealistic to expect to achieve all this with your first dog. The first dog is the one you will learn the most from, and it is far more important to find a companion that you love and have fun learning together.
You seem to be a bit elitist about the lower stakes. I wonder if you know just how much training goes into a UK Working Trials CDEx? Rather more than just Sit and Stay! I'm really proud of the letters after my pack's names. Yes, something anyone can achieve, but it takes committment.

CarolC your right I I’m sorry I am a bit too elitist in my attitude. I’m also sorry I offended you with the sit stay comment. I think it comes down to how my family growing up viewed dogs and me feeling different about it then them and wanting things to turn out opposite for me when I do get a dog.

My parents were old school people who didn’t really consider the dogs part of the family and didn’t really believe in training dogs.They were of the let the dog be a dog persuasion. They kept lady mainly in the basement in winter days outside in summer days in the days basement nights. Her social life was me being with her (but she wasn’t the fetch kind of dog) her feeding times and her walks (remember I was very young then @2-10 years of age and didn’t really know how dogs should be kept I thought that was how things were supposed to be done)

Ranger our second dog had it a bit better but every time I’d try to train him they’d sabotage it. Ranger made so much fuss at nights when we first got him that he trained my parents to have him as an outdoors dog. He’d howl until he was let out, be quiet outside, then howl again when he got inside again til they gave up and made him an outdoor dog for most of his life with us.

We spent a lot more time with him then lady. We’d play fetch with him pet him, dad would play tug of war on a towel with him, he’d have supervised play the neighborhood dogs, get to play with the neighborhood kids sometimes, and I’d pet him and spend time with him and stuff etc. I

n Spite of being an outdoor dog he had it better then lady did. He never did master anything I tried teaching him between his stubbornness and the interference with my attempts at training sessions with him. He finally settled into coming in at night in winter after he gold old but even so we’d have to go outside and drag him from his insulated dog house and bring him in holding onto his collar or he’d just go back into it. He was about 12 by then.

When I’d walk ranger I’d be a little tough on him. Since he didn’t know how to heel I kept him on the lead so short he had no choice but ti be in heel position because I was so embarrassed that he had no real training and wanted everyone to see him at heel and think he did.

I think that’s why I have the desires for obedience training and to do things totally the opposite of how my parents did and why I view obedience especially high level obedience degrees as almost the end all be all.

I just don’t want to go down the paths my parents did with a dog of mine. I want him spending time with me whenever I’m home, have him sleep a the foot of my bed and be an all round well trained obedient dog. That’s probably why I seem so elitist. Because I wanted so badly to have a dog I could be proud of back then and feel the one thing that would make the difference is obedience training of the highest caliber.

Add on: Rangers insulated dog house had a heavy military grade curtain door made from a large canvas bag my dad got somewhere, the walls were also insulated (I think) and it was squeezed into an old backyard brick barbecue that wasn’t used anymore so that 3 sides of it had brick walls sheltering the wood ones.the curtain door kept the heat in pretty good for him I think.

the bbq bricks were right against the sides there might have been a half inch (1 cm) between the wood and the bricks if there was even that much of a gap.

Wanted to add that in summer you’d find ranger snoozing under a white spruce in the back yard (it’s no longer in the family homes yard). He was never chained up and always had water available not like those dogs people have to rescue. He was fed twice a day.

anyway I just don’t want to treat a dog like that or make the same mistakes my parents did. When I get a dog I want him to be trained and part of my family (even if my family is only me) and for him to be good with guests.

Add on note:

Lady was not good when guest came over she’d bark her head off non- stop til they left.

Ranger was the opposite he never barked at all until the night he scared a raccoon up a tree and then never barked again after that. You wouldn’t know someone was coming til they knocked on the door.

He did always greet us when we came home in the car from being out though by racing round the yard howling a hello glad your back (howl? Yodel? Not sure the right word for it). Then after that he’d be at the gate to say hello

On a side note the only way I learned that other dogs had it differently was visiting friends and relatives and seeing their dogs with free range of the entire house mingling with us guests.

I’d prefer a dog to live with me like that as long as it was trained rather then how my folks treated lady and ranger.

(Edit time limits is why multiple replies btw )

My dad and his husky competed and got to CDX or UD. His first akita did the same. They both had championships in conformation also.

None of ny dogs have had extensive obedience training. All have had the basics - heel, sit, stay, recall. Down was less perfected and Stand was ignored for the most part.

All my dogs have been companion dogs. All have been integral to my life. Tornado-dog is curled up next to me on the bed right now and Cat-dog is sleeping underneath (it's her thing). They have all been house dogs. None have been crate trained. All have been good hosts and hostesses to guests (Bat-dog had strict rules to be followed, but she was polite - even to visitors in our campers). All have been able to visit family and friends and even my workplaces with no issues. They have visited parks and been hiking.

Bat-dog and Moose-dog spent years camping. They went on a work trip and to rallies. They went to lakes and rivers and creeks. They went to the boardwalk at Pismo (big deal for Bat-dog due to her people fear).

Cat-dog and Tornado-dog are going on pack walks weekly (big deal for Cat-dog with her dog fear).

I have routinely walked my two dogs together without issue:
Dog and her Akita
Dog and Moose-dog
Moose-dog and Bat-dog
Cat-dog and Tornado-dog (we're still in the learning stage)

If you ask my friends, they will tell you my dogs are most ALWAYS with me. Activities are planned to include my dogs as much as possible. Except in hot weather, if I go shopping, they come for the ride.

All my dogs with the exception of Cat-dog have accepted strange dogs into their home. Bat-dog didn't approve, but she allowed it for a day. All my dogs have been fine with cats. Bat-dog had strict rules for them but got along.

My akita spent the first three years of his life in a backyard kennel. At 3 years old, he had never smelled a flower or walked on grass. He was 100+ pounds and had never been on a leash. Everything was scary and new. He learned the skills and became a great family dog.

My corgi mix had been in an abusive home home for years. They picked her, dragged her, beat her, etc. When she came to me, she went into rages if you put a leash on her. If she felt a pull on her collar, she would go into a rage. As soon as you tried to control her direction she went into a rage. Within months, and with the use of a halti, she was walking on a leash like a pro.

My point with all this is that with a lot of love and attention and just the basics in obedience, any dog can be great. They don't need to be perfectly trained at the championship levels to be the best dog ever.

My most difficult was dog was also my soulmate. Our bond was so tight. Even though she had people fear and many many many rules, she had such character and personality that I accepted her faults. I worshipped Bat-dog. Aunt C was Bat-dog's nemesis for years. Aunt C didn't get the rules. It took Bat-dog years to train Aunt C. At the end, Bat-dog's determination came through. Aunt C was properly trained and became a worthwhile companion.

I've been watching Ollie the JRT doing agility on youtube. Even though he isn't perfect and makes mistakes, he is having so much fun. That is what I want for Tornado-dog. I would rather he stay as happy as possible then be perfect. Heck, I want that for me.

That’s interesting information you’ve given me.

I guess maybe I don’t need to go to UD dog level. Just I so don’t want to accidentally do things wrong. Plus I’ve always admired a well trained dog at heel and dogs that performed tricks. I always wondered how they got the dog to be so obedient and I was guessing it was from obedience lessons and thinking it must be high level obedience training that made the dogs so well mannered and obedient.

Thats why I was thinking I had to go the obedience route full out.

Ranger wasn’t kennelled he had free use of the backyard except for having to be chained 1 day after he got himself stuck investigating the new garage’s rebar prior to the concrete being poured. We got him unstuck (he’d gotten his foot caught) then chained him for his own good and safety that one day.

Not counting that one time and his walks (on lead) he was practically a free range dog (he had total use of the entire backyard no restrictions). He was good with visitors, never overtly territorial always welcomed them with a waggy tail. As gentle kind and friendly a dog as you ever could meet.

I remember him fondest out of the 2 dogs now but it took a long time (mostly because I was a teen and felt they were replacing my beloved Lady as if she didn’t matter to them but he stole my heart 13 years later after the raccoon incident).

Oh add on lady was paper trained (I did say she was treated in old school ways).

Ranger was neat and clean. He wouldn’t mess in the house even when he was old and spent the nights indoors in winters. He must have been a well housebroke pooch to be do clean (at first my folks had papers down for him but he never used them always fussed til he could go out to do his duties instead)

As to letting our dogs mingle with other dogs in the yard. Mostly if a visitor brought their dog my parents would make sure the dogs were not together as a general rule if uncle brought his dog out would be in the house and vice versa (pretty much) probably they were scared the dogs would fight or something if they were in the same yard (equivalent to same pen for farm animals I guess. They both grew up on farms). Dad was born 1918 died of cancer 1999. Moms still alive kicking and vehemently against having another dog at 97 she was born 1923. The had me really really old in case your wondering. So they weren’t like modern dog people people of their eras had different views on a dogs place in a family

I have to disagree with your comment about people of your parents era having different views on a dogs place in a family. Both my parents were born in 1909 - Father in the July, Mother in the November.

But our family dog was just that. A family dog. She lived in the house, slept in the house, and was treated exactly as we children were. She came from a shelter at around one year old with no background details, but she was totally house-trained, never messed inside, knew exactly what time Father was due home from work and would be sitting at the front door waiting before he had even turned the corner to walk home [we did not have a car].

She also knew exactly what time in the evening Father would take her out for a final walk.

So no, not all people of that era had different views regarding dogs.