What is a purebreed? Discussions

yes i didn't mean that labradoodle is a breed, i meant it is a first cross, just didn't come out right the way i put it

Ah but is it a first cross? or is it a breed in progress

thank you donkey, Going in to what is more healthy is a touchy subject,there are good KC Bulldogs out there and as for my VB,s alls i will say you could take them a 5 mile walk without the huffing and puffing, My 2 bitches self whelped and there temp are great, all my dogs and pups brought up around my kids and they cost half the price of a KC

i know a (kc) bulldog breeder, and he has difficulty with whelping, so if vb can do all normal dog things without problems, that has to be a good thing.

imo i would say that labradoodle would be a breed in progress when it is bred labradoodle to labradoodle

But they are not bred Labradoodle to Labradoodle !! The point of the cross was to produce a guide dog that did not moult, and the non moulting only happens in a few from each litter at the first cross stage, beyond that stage they moult as normal dogs, and therefore defeat the intention they began !! Therefore they only breed 1st crosses to get the dogs they want.

didnt realise the non moulting only happened in the first cross, so if they are not bred labradoodle to labradoodle then they are a first cross.

Exactly, and not a 'Labradoodle' at all, but a Poodle X Labrador

Only very, very few first crosses don't moult, infact I've never heard of one, it is only after crossing back to a poodle do they start getting non moulting dogs and a large proportion of 'labradoodles' are very high % poodle.
Becky

If thats the case they are not first crosses then more a breed in progress

Nope a breed in progress is one where they are crossing only the crosses together to establish type and not using any input from any of the parent breeds. If they are still using parent pure breeds in the program then they are still crosses.
Becky

There is one main and very big difference between the Lab x Poodle and most other cross breeds, that is they were bred for some good reason, most others are bred either to make money from those foolish enough to fall for the con or to boost the esteem of the inadequate, apart that is from the genuine accident.

No, they are not a breed in progress.
There is no standard, nor is one possible because so many different sizes and other crosses are being used to create F1 designer crossbreeds.
Some use Labs, some use Retrievers, some use Standard Poodles, some use Miniature. [ and thats without even thinking of all the other `doodle` cross breeds being churned out with a silly name and price tag to match ].

Within each litter there can be and are considerable differences in size, appearance, build, and coat type from sibling to sibling, so owners will not know what the adult result will be.
I had such a cross, [ a rescue ], of full known history. Until she was 6 months old she apparently looked like a pure Lab - the she stopped growing in height and started sprouting clumps of poodle coat. She also suffered in hot weather because of the two types of coat so needed to be fully clipped every Summer.

It does`nt - its a fallacy. That was the original aim however as the originator of the idea found, it does`nt happen that way. The originator stopped breeding these crosses as a result of the failed coat theory.

Unfortunately a lot of charlatans decided to cash in on the theory and still claim it even now to be for producing dogs suitable for people with allergies but its a complete crock.

yes but they are breeding them to each other there are a few advertised. When the VB program started it had to start somewhere, I think back then the percentages were 50% Bulldog and the other 50% split, would go as far to say most of the dogs probably consist of at least 80% Bulldog now, so much so that the standard was changed this year to reflect this moving male dogs down to 50lb-65lb instead of the original 65lbs-75lbs, so in simple terms a Bulldog/SBT crossed with a BM is basically a cross breed dog but was a breed in progress. I think the breed in progress really refers to a breeding program and really can see this happening with some cross breeds, Just need to look at the dobermann for instance and its KC recognition.All dogs start off somewhere.
cheers kinzy

I was intrested to read about the V.Bulldog as i know that the bulldog can have bad health (not that im into them, just wat ive read)

anyway, this is what i found about victorian bulldogs:

In London in 1985 a breeding program began, led by Mr. Ken Mollett. Mr. Mollett was saddened to see so many unhealthy bulldogs and wanted to bring back the original, taller, healthier bulldog of the 1800's. With the passing of the years, Graham Woods and Ken Mollett's brother Derek, both early partners in the program, gave up or sought other goals, but Ken persisted. Using only bull-breeds registered with the Kennel Club of Great Britain and anchoring his program firmly on the modern bulldog, he set about crossing Staffords, Bullmastiffs, Dogue de Bordeaux and the healthiest Bulldogs he could find. Mollett selected carefully and every animal used was the best available. In the late 1980's the dog's being produced and bred by Derreck Mollett and Steve Barnett were utilized and used, by Ken Mollet as the direct foundation dogs to his Victorian Bulldogs. Working to old photographs, statues, written descriptions and engravings, he set out to remake the dog pictured in Victorian times. He called this dog the Victorian Bulldog. Today the type is fixed and the dogs are breeding regularly to that type. Ken Mollett insists, however, that since the health of his dogs is more important than their looks, the standard should not be viewed as a straight jacket. Similar to what happened in the USA to the Olde English Bulldogge of Mr. David Leavitt, where breeders of alternative strains bred Bulldog types together and wrongly used the name Olde English Bulldogge for its popularity, so can be seen with Mollet’s Victorian Bulldog. Mr. Mollett named his strains Victorian Bulldogs. As the Victorian Bulldog became popular, other breeders started to create their own strain of Bulldogs and called their dogs Victorian Bulldogs when the dogs were not related to Mollets strains at all. Some Bulldogs using the name Victorian Bulldogs are just first or second generation crosses. Only Victorian Bulldogs registered with the Victorian Bulldog Society (VBS) of Great Britain or the Victorian Bulldog Foundation (VBF) must be regarded as true Victorian Bulldogs, and if you buy a puppy from parents not registered at the VBS or VBF you will not get a true Victorian Bulldog. Dogs called Victorian Bulldogs which are not register with the VBS or VBF, are not necessarily "Bad" dogs, but they are simply not the true Victorian Bulldog of Mr. Mollett.

With the labradoodle, i find it quite pointless because it was meant for people who are blind? or have allergies, but there are already SO many breeds around for people with allergies, for example:
Bichon Frise, Bolognese, Border Terrier, Giant Schnauzer, Irish Water Spaniel, Kerry Blue Terrier, Maltese, Miniature Poodle, Miniature Schnauzer, Shih-Tzu, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, Spanish Water Dog, Standard Poodle, Standard Schnauzer, Tibetan Terrier.

Most people i have talked to have said that the dog either moults like crazy or the dog is a nutter!!

i also found this on labradoodles / doodle crosses:
F1 = 50% Labrador and 50% Poodle - This is Lab to poodle cross, this is first generation, resulting in healthier offspring! Hair type can be smooth like a Lab, wirey look like a Irish wolfhound or Wavy/shaggy, they can shed or not shed, pups in the same litter can vary. This is not the best cross for people with severe allergies.

So you then have to cross it back with a poodle.......creating a 75% poodle...........erm...is it just me...or why not JUST get a poodle??

F1-B = 25% Labrador Retriever and 75% Poodle (F1 Labradoodle and Poodle cross) - This is Labradoodle bred back to Poodle, Wavy Curly shaggy look doodle very consistent in coat types. F1B is the MOST likely of any to be non shedding and Allergy friendly then ANY doodles and is the easiest coat to take care of.

F2 = F1 Labradoodle and F1 Labradoodle cross - this combination you get the same percentage of Lab Poodle mix as you would an F1 Labradoodle so they are more likely to shed.

Mixed breed dog such as labradoodle which is a cross between a labradore and a poodle, may not be 100% effective at preventing allergies in some people because the breed is half poodle and half labradore. Same goes for every other mixed breed of dog that is crossed with a poodle. Because it is mixed breed you only get half of the protection against allergies.

No-one is disputing that a new breed has to start somewhere but that doesn't mean it is a 'breed' in it's early stages of creation. Until there is a breed standard and a closed stud book (that is no further input from the original breeds) then they cannot be deemed a breed in progress.
Becky

Precisely. Lab X Poodles are not in a breeding programme, just people crossing labdoods with labdoods and fooling people into thinking they are getting a pure labdoodle

I do totally agree on the labradoodle issue, they are a cross in my eyes and i find the price quite astonishing to be honest, But if someone wants one that their objective,not my thing to be honest, People who breed dogs to keep a pup back i can understand no matter cross breed or pure breed, Accidental breedings do happen fair play to the responsible owners seeking new homes,People looking to make money from breeding these exotic crosses are not dog people in my eyes. At the end of the day their all dogs, the difference is in the name breed! If you breed a GSD to a Belgian shepherd the outcome is still shepherd just from differ types. 95% of dog breeds are man made. Enjoying the debate guys can only help educate others which was the whole purpose of post