West German Showline or Highline GSDs Showing

The dog was nervous, not at all committed to the bite, lacked drive...etc just generally a poor example of what a GSD should be as a working dog (IMO).

As a quick comparison here is a working line GSD doing the same thing (first one I found on youtube)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HzrPgp3HQU&feature=related

Whooooa!! He knocked the man right off his feet! Nice!

So the barking afterwards doesn't matter? When they are seated in front of the attacker? But yea, it was obvious this guy was not going to let go... XD

Also in the first vid they went through two obstacle courses, the first is them walking at heel with their handlers - they're supposed to run up and 'attack' when the man in the suit is miming an attack, correct? And not beforehand? (One dog ran ahead and started barking at the 'attacker' while he was still just standing there and doing nothing; was wondering if that would disqualify him.)

I watched the showline vid, but had seen enough after the dog that came on at about 5.58. I can't believe these dog's trainers deemed it appropriate to put them through what must have been an ordeal for them to which they are not suited. The dog that came on at 5.58 looked very uncomfortable, head down, ears pinned back. Either it's owner, the helper or trainer (or all 3) has put that dog under much more pressure than it can handle.

But I guess, if you need a Sch qualification to breed, then the breeders will do everything they can to get that qualification on the dog, even if it is not suitable. As desirable as I think some sort of working qualifications are for showline GSDs to be allowed to breed, there has to be a certain standard which should be met if they are to mean anything, and the breeders have to be honest and ethical in assessing whether to put a dog through the rigours of obtaining the qualification.

Another issue is whether all Sch qualifications are equal - but that is another matter!

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Exactly, those poor dogs. :-( They don't have the temperament to do Schutzhund as they clearly don't have solid nerves.

I have had 3 showline GSD's and 2 of them have had fear aggression issues. Why do people keep breeding from nervous dogs? That's my gripe, not that they should all be working champions but they should be able to pass the breed test (which is what Schutzhund is)

Exactly! There are probably more GSDs in companion roles than in working roles and so you wouldn't want only the extremely high drive dogs being bred from, however what a difference it would make to the breed if only confident, strong nerved dogs that could pass the breed test were eligible to be bred from.

The dog in the video failed the"test of courage"which is carried before the conformation assessment phrase of the Seiger show.

The dog would not be allowed to compete in the conformation assessment & as far as I remember has to undergo another "Körung"

Dogs that fail the Körung for whatever reason or that fail the "test of courage" are rarely bred from as their records are noted with the SV & available to breeders.

Perhaps you should watch this Körung protection phrase to see the test that is carried out to assess the dogs for breeding purposes.

The video is not of a dog doing Schutzhund in competition the dog was being assessed for the "Test of Courage"for show dogs that they have to pass before they are shown at the Sieger. If they fail this they do not take part any further in the show.

Schutzhund/VPG

I don't know anything about the show world so is the Korung and test of courage 2 different things? The Korung you posted looked more like a normal Schutzhund routine?

I don't really get what is supposed to be happening in the test of courage as there seems to be very little control or obedience, so guess it's a different thing?

The problem I see is that a dog that behaves like that first dog in the video (spooking at the helper and failing to bite) shouldn't ever be bred from as he is nervous. It seems to me that a lot of nervy dogs can get through the test with lots of repetition and training and then go on to breed. :?

Agreed, good training can go some way to de-sensitising dogs to the helper during the test of courage, especially if the helper attacks and drives the dog weakly. Good training should help the dog maximise its potential. But training can only go so far if the dog is nervy or doesn't have the drives, a good helper will and should expose the weakness. If the dog doesn't have the right drives to begin with it will never look really good.

The Test of Courage is just that, testing the dog's courage & if it fails then the dog cannot be shown.

The Körung is the total assessment of the dog for breeding purposes. The Protection phrase is as shown. The dog is also measured, examined by a qualified SV judge-the exact details of the Körung are on the link in my post.

Having been present at many Körung in Germany, I've not seen a nervous dog pass the test, they fail at some point.

I don't know what the tests are like in Italy, but I don't think you can condemn German dogs for dogs in another country.

My friend who is in the video with her young dog, has trained dogs for their Körung for other owners, however the dog has to live with the trainer & any imperfections in temperament quickly become apparent & no trainer with a good reputation like Petra would consider "lots of repetition and training"to get a substandard dog through it's Körung.

Dogs owned from puppyhood have their characters greatly affected by their owners, independant of their inherited character

In your opinion Dyane, which type best fits the breed standard then? Do the showline/highline actually manage to compete properly in the working side or is it all just there for show per say?

I do like the German working types but possibly feel they may have too much "drive" for someone used to relatively laidback gundogs.

I personally like the HGH dogs-these are the ones that work sheep/cattle for a living & I also like the VPG dogs. These although they have a high work drive, have to have excellent temperaments & tractability(willing to learn)& i know of many that live happily as pets.

Some showline dogs do gain their VPG III, IPO 3 etc, depends on how much the owners want to do with them.

I wouldn't touch a English type with a bargepole

Well I had an email from Tom Nye to say he has two bitch pups at the moment ;-) He also has another couple of interesting matings planned for the future. All a bit too soon for me unfortunately - he does have some very nice dogs though.

What did you think of the Crufts 2011 GSD BOB winner then?

THis dog belongs to friends of mine, and has SchH3, KK1, LBZ as well as winning numerous BIS.

Hips, elbows, haemo tested and DNA profiled.

A very nice dog, not MY particular cup of tea but one that has demonstrated both here and abroad that he is fit for function etc.

Elmo? I thought he was very nice actually - gorgeous head on him. Great to know he is fit for function.

I had a look at the website that owns him and they have some really nice dogs!

John and PAuline are two of the nicest people you could wish to meet who put a LOT into the GSD world even the working one!

They are very generous in their approach to others.

Got a lot of time for them.