"We don't believe in vaccinations." Discussions

Vee - Pereg was NOT epileptic when she had her first Grand Mal seizure. She had had her puppy shots, two years of regular vaccinations and two rabies shots.

She had Idiopathic Epilepsy - epilepsy of no known reason. Nothing to do with vaccinations because she did NOT have epilepsy when she had her first seizure.

The point I was making was that research advises against vaccinating dogs that suffer from epilepsy.

Yes I think the guide dog association is same as system alert, yes PAT dogs cats, rabbits birds etc must have annual boosters

Read what I highlighted, that is what I replied to. articles about horror stories of dogs falling ill because they haven't had their boosters.
What articles? I asked for proof.
1) Immunity last longer than a year.
2) Since fully vaccinated dogs can/do get diseases (as do humans since you keep mentioning) how can one prove that a dog who didn't receive a booster and became ill did so because of the lack of a booster?

If you are asking for proof of immunity, yes it's called studies in scientific journals. If you would like info on vaccine immunity there is info available online.
This is an article with information
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/lifelong-immunity-vets/
Minimum Duration Of Immunity For Canine Vaccines
Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology

Kennel cough vaccines are often recommended for 2xs a year because the immunity doesn't last that long, but some vets are not recommending them at all because dogs vaccinated according to schedule still get kennel cough and it is a non serious self limiting disease.

What exactly is the question? It does not make sense to me.

I am sorry to hear that. Many people have complications due to measles.

So these people in the medical and science fields are all liars and putting forth fraudulent test results? That's absurd.

Thanks, yes I will choose to believe the scientific research of proven facts. I have seen what polio has done, unfortunate, but those were people who were not vaccinated at all.
Also years does not equal wisdom. I always research to gain knowledge, not simply look around and rely solely on my own life experience.

What are you talking about? You keep mentioning epilepsy, but no one else did. I understand that you were on the list and some people wouldn't vaccinate that was their choice. No one here is saying you shouldn't have vaccinated your dog. My friend's dog has epilepsy and has been vaccinated. I don't own an epileptic dog and no one has said you should buy oil and not vaccinate here to you or that they are doing that themselves.

Of course not, no cure, it's a virus. I am not sure your point. What won't you risk?
Yes, vaccinated dogs have contracted Parvo but that doesn't mean that the vaccine doesn't work. It is proven to work, including for a longer duration than a year. I think min 95% protection rate in test. To me that's proven to work.

You won't risk what vaccinating your dog 2x a year? Some vaccs don't include lepto or only a single strain of it. You need to buy a separate multi strain vaccine.

It has nothing to do with saving pennies, ridiculous assumption. It has to do with medical evidence. You do what your vet suggest as do others, different vets/states in the USA do 2yr or 3yr rabies, some are also going longer in between boosters. So how is it that the client is trying to save money. Others is by their choice yes. That doesn't mean they are worried about the money. They are worried about over vaccinating. There is no reason to give unnecessary vaccines. As someone who has spent $800 last month on my dogs, I am not worried about a $5 vaccine. I don't want to spend unnecessary money, I shop smart, but I also care about my dogs, which is why I don't give them unnecessary meds. All medications can have side effects, it isn't to give casually or when they don't need it.

Vaccines have caused reactions and complications, medical treatments of any kind are not without risk.

The vaccine is against some strains of HPV, it doesn't protect against all and not everyone gets it. I have and never will get it. It is not without possible side effects as well.

You are joking right. Natural rearing doesn't believe in vaccines so they are penny pinching? Do you realize they feed raw most the time, which isn't cheap by any means. Homeopathic treatment & preventatives can at times be more expensive than traditional methods. No they don't let their dogs run lose, you are grasping at straws.

There are people who neglect their dogs including no vaccines, no medical treatment and without proper containment but that's a different subject all together.

My dogs are not spayed or neutered, unless medically necessary. They for sure don't run lose, um that'd be an unwanted litter. I am not going to remove major organs or unnecessary surgery for kicks and giggles.

My dogs are vaccinated to what I feel is necessary and to recommended procedure of vets actually putting the time in to study it.

@Bulldogs4Life - when I was a young child, in England, distemper and other diseases were rife because there were no vaccinations against them and the idea of taking a "healthy" dog to a vet would be laughed about. "You can always get another dog - they cost maximum £2 at a pet shop, or free from Battersea Dogs home, or him up the road has unwanted puppies" Dogs were not raw fed, they were fed on whatever leftovers they were given. Or, if they were lucky and their owners were considered to be rich, they were fed on the cheapest tinned food like PAL - at that time advertised [until it was not allowed] as being Prolongs Active Life, usually recommended to be mixed 1/3rd with 2/3rds Winalot biscuits. And all neighbours were so impressed that you were rich enough.

And if you were considered rich the neighboughs would bow down and bring their Sunday roast beef bone for the dog when if they had had any sense they could have made a darn good soup from it when dried peas or similar were added.

Parvo reared its ugly head just after I had my first litter when I started breeding Griffons. There was no, I repeat no, vaccinations against it, and there is STILL no guaranteed cure. I had three very young puppies and both my mentor, who owned the sire, and I agreed to take part in a test for a Parvo using the vax for cat flu as it was and as it was being adjusted for Parvo. And no, we were not paid to do so. But we did not lose any or out puppies.

My Pereg, not one of my breeding but a rescue after I moved here, and was 100% healthy, having had over two years of vaccinations before she had her first seizure. Ezee I suggest you learn a bit more about things.

Your comment

would lose you your dog/s if you lived here. Unless, of course, you like breaking the law.

Im confused as to why system alert/pat dogs are required to be vaccinated every year,
PAT dogs are not considered to be assistance dogs and not supplied by a service, so surely it’s up to the owner.

Guide Dogs recommends that boosters which ‘top up’ the dog’s immunity are given once a dog is qualified and placed with its new owner. These will be administered by the owner's veterinary surgeon at intervals as recommended by the vaccine manufacturer.

I didn’t realize that GD got free vaccinations.
Vaccine manufactures supply vaccines free of charge to Guide Dogs' puppies and dogs.

https://www.guidedogs.org.uk/servic...-dog-health-checks/vaccinations/#.Vr21bbSLSM-

@GsdSlave This may well be hearsay - I have tried looking on PAT Dogs website, but there is no mention of vaccination on their open pages. More information could be available if you showed interest in joining the scheme.
I do not have health insurance for my dogs, but I have seen posts from others, either here or on Dogsey, which state that annual boosters are required as a condition of their insurance. I wonder if this how vaccination and annual health checks has become connected to the insurance required for 'helper' dogs. Just a guess.

How many times do I have to say this - PEREG WAS NOT EPILEPTIC WHEN SHE WAS FIRST VACCINATED, SHE WAS OVER TWO YEARS OLD WHEN SHE HAD HER FIRST SEIZURE. Three baby shots, two yearly booster shots, and two rabies shots.

So there is NO WAY you can connect the the shots with her epilepsy.

I understand how it was when vaccines did not exist.
You are comparing two unrelated situations. A time of no vaccines / people not taking care of dogs to natural rearing today or those who don't do annual vaccines.
What do the people without vaccines, who wouldn't take dogs to vet, think of dogs as disposable and being so cheap to acquire, ect have anything to do with this discussion?

When you see breeders or dog owners who don't believe in vaccinations they are almost always natural rearers. Natural rearers are not cheap, penny pinching, as I said. They do feed raw and use natural treatments, which can be expensive. Then people like myself who don't give unnecessary vaccines (annual boosters) but do give vaccinations that are needed. It isn't about penny pinching, I do what I can to save money when it comes to dogs, but not at the expense of my dogs. When it comes to vaccines I won't over vaccinate. I actually had 10 EXPIRED vaccines before, 10! That is money lost, they were already purchased and paid for but I did not use them. Expiration dates vary from 12-18 months of time of purchase. So it's not about pinching pennies at all. They could have been given a year later for "annual boosters" within the expiration date but it's unnecessary, so lost that money.

No there isn't a cure, it is a virus. You treat the symptoms and the dogs system fights it off. We established this. The vaccine has been successful in preventing illness most of the time.

I am always open to learning more, like I said I research. I don't like to do anything blind. What exactly are you recommending I learn more about. "Things" isn't very specific.

Right, but I don't live there. Here if you don't have UTD rabies you don't lose your dog, you simply must get the rabies vaccine. 3 years is also acceptable. Different states have different requirements, 1, 2 or 3 years. The vet will give you a certificate for the allowed amount of time. I am not breaking any law by this, but don't be so dramatic. It isn't like murdering babies if I let my dog go past the required time for rabies vaccine.
Dr Schultz and others are not recommending anyone break the law either, only giving information and stating changes need to be made.

[testimonial person=’Immunologist Dr Ronald Schultz’]Vaccines for diseases like distemper and canine parvovirus, once administered to adult animals, provide lifetime immunity.[/testimonial]
Ian Tizard states: “With modified live virus vaccines like canine parvovirus, canine distemper and feline panleukopenia, calicivirus, and rhinotracheitis the virus in the vaccine must replicate to stimulate the immune system. In a patient that has been previously immunized, antibodies from the previous vaccine will block the replication of the new vaccinal virus. Antibody titers are not significantly boosted. Memory cell populations are not expanded. The immune status of the patient is not enhanced.

After the second rabies vaccination, re-administration of rabies vaccine does not enhance the immune status of the patient at one or two year intervals. We do not know the interval at which re-administration of vaccines will enhance the immunity of a significant percentage of the pet population, but it is certainly not at one or two year intervals. Tizard Ian, Yawei N, Use of serologic testing to assess immune status of companion animals, JAVMA, vol 213, No 1, July 1, 1998.

“The recommendation for annual re-vaccination is a practice that was officially started in 1978.” says Dr. Schultz. “This recommendation was made without any scientific validation of the need to booster immunity so frequently. In fact the presence of good humoral antibody levels blocks the anamnestic response to vaccine boosters just as maternal antibody blocks the response in some young animals.”
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/lifelong-immunity-vets/

If people want to comply with the law that's good, you don't have a choice on rabies in most places. The other vaccines, however, are not typically mandated by law. Most people have no clue so they keep giving unnecessary vaccines. The immunity doesn't stop after 365 days. Just as antibiotic expiration dates are meaningless, even many food dates.

Right. So you, a human, have a major infection and are prescribed antibiotics for 7 or 10 days but you feel better after 3 or 4 days. Do you stop taking them? Or do you have the sense to know that you should take the full course.

I follow the advice of my doctor for myself.. And as I followed the advice of Pereg's Vet, Ram, so I intend to follow the advice of Michal, Tikva's primary vet now.

Out of date/expired food is one thing. But expired medication and vaccines are bdooly dangerous.

The "sense", so if people do something different from you, do you believe they don't have sense? This seems condescending.

I rarely take antibiotics, they are typically unnecessary, but people want a quick fix and run to the doc every time they cough. The last time I was in such a position, to actually warrant antibiotic use, was probably 14y or 15yrs ago, I don't remember if I took all the antibiotics or not.
We have antibiotic resistance because of the over prescribed antibiotics. At least now Drs are more knowledgeable. We have signs in the office saying you will never be prescribed them for a virus and that only when necessary for a bacterial infection.

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/oct/8-stop-taking-antibiotics-when-you-feel-better
The science is clear,” says infectious disease specialist Brad Spellberg of the Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute. “Every study that has been done comparing longer versus shorter antibiotic therapy has found shorter therapy just as effective.” A few days of taking antibiotics, it seems, should usually be enough to knock infections on their heels, allowing the patient’s immune system to come in and mop up.

Taking the full course of antibiotics unnecessarily wastes medicine, and more drugs translates to increased evolutionary pressure on the harmless bacteria in our bodies. These “good” bugs can develop drug-resistant genes, which can then transfer to bad bugs.

Furthermore, wiping out drug-susceptible bacteria in infections too quickly makes it easier for drug-resistant bacteria to compete over a host’s resources. Better access to nutrients lets the mutant bugs multiply far more rapidly, upping the odds that they’ll reach a so-called “transmissible density.” That means the resistant bacteria proliferate so much that they can escape and infect another person.

That's fine, but you are wrongfully judging others because they follow advice of their own or other vets. Annual vaccines are proven unnecessary but you are acting as if the dogs are at risk and the owners careless and penny pinching when that's not the case.

All medical professionals don't agree on everything, that's why people get 2nd opinions but nothing, nothing is wrong with following your doc or vets advice. I'm not recommending against it to you or anyone else here.

I don't recommend to follow out dated ideas or non science though either, at least I personally won't do it. It's up to others to make their own choices.

Expired food can be dangerous. It depends on the food, the type of bacteria and the bacteria load. Canned food is one of the most well preserved food types, proven to be safe and free of harmful microbes decades after the expiration date. There are exceptions when bacteria and most importantly botulinum specifically is a threat, rusted, expanded or dented cans. Even within the expiration date it is risky.

No, no, no. The study initiated by the US Military proved that antibiotics are good for typically at least 5yrs after the expiration date, some for 10yrs, others even 20yrs later still retain most their potency. None of them are found to dangerous, with the exception of tetracycline (of which has since been manufactured differently to prevent this).

I have never heard of expired vaccines being dangerous. It might be true, but I've only heard that they are less or ineffective as they lose their potency more quickly. Especially in modified live vaccines. I did not give my dogs expired vaccines though, on the contrary. My point was that instead of using them, unnecessary, within the expiration date, I allowed them to expire. The complete opposite of pinching pennies. They were good for 16 months according to expiration date, so 12 months later could have been used for boosters. However, I'm not going to give them "just because" or so I don't feel like I wasted money. So they expired and we're never used.

I am not nor have ever been a member of the US military. I am born and born up British, so you are welcome to what you had. I rarely take anti-biotics because of allergies but to take them 20 years after expiry date, is stark raving bdoooly crazy. But good luck to you if you have the guts to to take them.

As for giving way out of date vaccinations and or anti-biotics, I am so glad I am not a member or your household. Human or canine.

No need to ‘shout’! Get off your high horse and tell me where ive stated that vaccinations caused your dog to become epileptic.

And as I followed the advice of Pereg's Vet, Ram, so I intend to follow the advice of Michal, Tikva's primary vet now.
That’s your prerogative, but don’t accuse people of ‘penny pinching’ for following the ‘Manufactures instructions.
From Nobivac vaccine manufacturer
A duration of immunity of at least three years has been established for the canine distemper virus, canine adenovirus and canine parvovirus vaccine components.
Booster vaccination

It is recommended that dogs be revaccinated with canine distemper virus, canine adenovirus and canine parvovirus every 3 years’.. http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/Products_Public/Nobivac_DHPPi/090_Product_Datasheet.aspx

You don't have to be a member of the military or a resident of this country to read the study. The military stock piles many antibiotics, therefore had to waste so much due to "expiration dates" so they needed to find out how long they were really safe and effective for.

I don't take or have access to 20yr expired antibiotics. Here antibiotics are prescribed by a Dr and filled by a pharmacist at the time of need. So it's on demand.

I don't remember, but I want to say I took the full week of antibiotics. I didn't feel better after a week, I know that. I had an inhaler and was told to stay out of the cold air. I couldn't work dogs for weeks.

As condescending as you like to be with people, I'm a patient person. But I have to ask Can you read? I do believe that you can, so you must simply not read when people reply or try to wind people up?

Why are you glad? I am very glad about that too, but I have to ask why as how is out dated vaccs or antibiotics relevant to that subject?
Where did I say I give humans and canines in my household out dated vaccs or antibiotics? I said the opposite did I not? You tried to accuse people of penny pinching for not giving boosters. Now when I state I did not give expired vaccines and therefore lost money, you try to imply that I'm lying and did?

Dog antibiotics are just like people antibiotics here, they must be prescribe by a vet and are given at the time of need. I don't have access to "way out of date" antibiotics.

Do you feel that if you were a household member I would break into a military base, steal expired antibiotics and shove them down your throat? You realize too that people within a household don't always make the same choices. They are free to do as they please independently.

She can't because you didn't.

Just as she can't show where I told her not to vaccinate an epileptic dog, that it caused her dog's epilepsy, that she should have given Pereg cannabis oil, ect. No one mentioned those things but her initially. I'm starting to believe some people like a debate even if one doesn't exist. This isn't the first thread like this. Go into a thread and start defending choices and beliefs that no one even mentioned or attacked. Make your own false accusations, can't show where I stated that I gave my dogs way out dated vaccines or antibiotics, that I'm trying to pinch pennies so that's why I don't do annual boosters, nor that any of us neglect our dogs, it's completely unrelated talking about people of the past neglecting their dogs.

Should say too. I am fine with real debates, I'm fine with people who disagree with me or share different views. I'm also not closed minded and don't think I know everything, so I'm open to learning new things. Some things are facts though. Others are opinions, at times I might change my mind, other times I will still disagree. That's personal differences.
I am not fine when people lay false accusations or make something out of nothing. It's pointless and disrespectful.
I don't think it matters what country you are from, I've learned things from studies originating from various countries worldwide.

Oh, so you trust companies that sell veterinary products but not are not veterinarians themselves. Do you feel the same way about human doctors and specialists? Or would you prefer to be treated by Nobivac.

If you had to have your appendix removed, who would you chose? Nobivac or a human surgeon?

Say you had to have an emergency c-section to save the life of your possibly dying baby. Nobivac or an obstetric surgeon.

Nobivac sell veterinary products. They are a sales company. But you seem to like them. So they must be good.

Now your just being obnoxious! Im still waiting for you to tell me where ive stated that vaccinations caused your dog to become epileptic.

Of course. The post is pointless. The link I posted and quoted was from a veterinary immunologist. Response to that "you would lose your dog here, unless of course, you link breaking the law."

A sales company would want you to buy as much product as necessary, that's how they make money. So they wouldn't recommend less often than needed. I also assume the sales company has backed testing of the product to find out the duration of immunity. The average vet has not, they simply administer it. The pharmaceutical companies are the ones who make the products and have them tested, they should be the ones with the knowledge on their product. She keeps mentioning human Drs, most humans Drs no LESS about medications than pharmacists and medical professionals who performed the test for the medication.
Who do I want performing a C section? A doc
Who do I want to give me vaccine / med info? Pharmacist or those involved with clinical trials who create the guidelines. Of which are GUESS WHO vets or Dr, medical professionals, depending if they are human or dog vacs. Does she think CEO, marketing department or the factory workers are the ones running the trials or just making up guidelines as they go along.

Some of Nobivac clinical trials and tests are available online.

http://www.2ndchance.info/dogvacs.htm
Ron Hines DVM PHD a VET this is what he states
What Vaccinations Should My Adult Pet Get ?

With the exceptions I have mentioned (Kennel Cough, Leptospirosis, Lyme) adult dogs do not need to be vaccinated more than every three years.

Dr Dodds has lots of info on vaccine schedule and is a leader in the thyroid, endocrine field, the go to for autoimmune issues.
http://drjeandoddspethealthresource...g-vaccination-protocol-2013-2014#.Vr4yEehMG2d

Perform vaccine antibody titers for distemper and parvovirus every three years thereafter, or more often, if desired.

AH! So its more to do with the insurers rather than a PAT dog policy, now you mention it I remember reading on GSD forum someone complaining that the company they were with wouldn’t insure if they didn’t have the annual vaccinations.