Hello Everyone, My name is Nadia, most people in Utonagan and Northern Inuits know of me. Sulin Shimba @ Recall was neutered after hip scoring. He had been used at stud previously, however the state of his hips was not known at that time. It was not until 2004 when the first Utonagan were ever hip scored that it was possible to hip score with the BVA as Utonagan. There is reference to a mean score of 12 in a chat forum, however that refers only to the scores reported to that chat forum. The current breed mean score as registered with the BVA is 27, as mentioned by another dogsey poster, however that is out of only 14 dogs, hopefully next January we will have a better picture. I hope that this has been helpful.
Hi Nadia. I believe it is possibly to have any dog hip scored, pedigree or otherwise. Failing this, a vet experience in hip x-ray would have been able to give a pretty good indication of hip status. There do seem to have been a few more dogs scored since the BVA publication in January and from my calculations the breed mean score is now 25 from 22 dogs. It does seem that the higher scores have not been reported to the forum but they are listed on another part of the club website so obviously have been made known to the club. Unfortunately they have not been counted in the club's calculated breed "average."
Hello Pod, Whilst I have been informed that it is possible to hip score non-registered dogs, many people have had problems trying to convince a vet to go through with it, in fact many Utonagan owners have had problems getting their vet to hip score, I refer you to www.spirit-of-the-wolf.co.uk, who had tremendous trouble getting her dogs scored, for further information please email her direct at hungarianpulis@aol.com as she freely gives information regarding her stock. As to mean scores posted in a chat forum, the mean is only of those scores posted, not of those that one has had visual on, or of others known to the webmaster. Thank you for your interest in the breed, it is with constructive comments that new breeds can move forward.
Yes I am interested in the breed, particulary because of the premise that the phenotype is based on a likeness of the wolf. I think this a very good starting point for establishing good health. It is though such a shame that more attention wasn't paid to this in establishing founder bloodlines IMO. Many breeders/owners of various breeds regularly travel hundreds of miles for the services of vets of good reputation who specialise in hip x-raying. I would have thought this would have been a priority for a breed in formation.
It is a shame that the forerunners in the breed did not have the same knowledge regarding health testing and latest genetic breakthroughs, it is now left to us, the devotees of the breed to continue to resolve the issues that have been presented to us. With time and dedication now being spent, KC/BVA health tests are now a matter of course for those of us who are serious and pationate about their future.
22 or 27 seems high to me as a mean score for a ? meduim breed. i can understand that it goes on the amount of dogs scores and their results like all breeds but it just seems a high figure any ideas why? it like my own mean score is 12 but thats low considering the size of the dog and there isn't loads been scored either although more than the utes i guess.
Thats very odd - I know of a number of people who have had non-registered crossbreeds hipscored for health reasons and before doing sports such as agility. I can't see a vet refusing to help an animal's health, registered or not...
I agree Leo, especially when you consider breeds such as the Labrador have an average of 16. I must say that I am dissappointed. Dawn.
Can I just say here that hip scoring only started in 1978, for pedigree GSD's only, well after Eddy Harrison started her breeding programme. The inclusion of other breeds into the scheme only began in the early 80's. It wasn't that many years ago that the average score for a GSD was in the 50's. Many breeds have been selectively bred for centuries, so will obviously have low scores and do better than a breed that is relatively new. All X ray plates have been submitted regardless of look, this is not normally the case so therefore utes are the only ones to do this at the moment.
According to the BVA website.... The mean score for Alaskan Malamutes is 13 (the highest scored being 69) The mean score for GSD's is 19 (the highest scored being 106) The mean score for Siberian Husky is 7 (the highest scored being 43) So given that.. you would think that the maximum acceptable score would be 19... Mals & GSD's are on the larger end of medium and heavier built and heavier boned so for a lighter boned, lighter built Ute, you would expect a lower score..
The breed was started over 25 years ago when scores were not even invented, no fresh blood has been added except for one occasion in 1996. Whilst the mean scores quoted are current that is not the case in the original stock all those years ago. The average shoulder height of a ute is around 28" much bigger than a sibe, also some of the older lines are quite chunky like the mal. For instance my 2 weighed in at 32 kilos and 26" at the shoulder at 9 months old, and are already bigger than most GSDs, they are very big boned.
Hip evaluatioin by x-ray has been in existence since 1960 for GSDs and since 1965 for all breeds. Although the severity of the evaluation method (pass, breeders letter, fail) made it somewhat unpopular, it was still used by many breeders. The point is, breeders were aware of hip dysplasia from the 60s and were using x-raying whether the plates were submitted or not. It wasn't until 1983 that the present method of scoring was available for all breeds, but this doesn't explain why it hasn't been a requirement for breeding Utonagans up until 2006. All which x-ray plates? I have counted 22 so far that have been published on webpages. Are there more? In this situation it would be good policy to score as many as possible particularly those implicated in the high scoring pedigrees. Has the dog "Dreamcatcher" been done? You seem to be saying that the longer a breed has been in existence, the lower the mean score will be. Absolutely not. By choosing dogs of good construction, good hips and good breeding for hips, to found a breed, it would have been possible to establish very good hip status right from the start. I'd be interested in seeing the reference for this.
Everything that Ute and NI folk preach, have been that of healthy sound animals in mind and body, this clearly, given the epilepsy, hip problems and I expect others that have not come to light, is NOT the case. Dawn.
Until 2004 it was not possible to hip score Utonagan as Utonagan, scoring them as crossbreeds would not have given us a KC/BVA mean score. We have had to work hard to get the BVA to recognise the breed and score them accordingly. With the BVA's help we aim to score as many Utonagan as possible regardless of the state of the hips, in order to furnish us with a true mean hip score.
We were mis-informed by our forefathers, and are now implementing our best endeavours to rectify the situation.
Carrara, it's very simple to calculate the mean score, you don't need the BVA to do it. Does the club have a health co-ordinator or anyone interested in doing this?
Pod, You are absolutely right, we could well have calculated this ourselves had we wished to have the KC/BVA think that Utonagan were not bothering with health testing.
I don't understand what you are saying in your last post Carrara but surely it would be for the benefit of the breed if dogs had been x-rayed and hips assessed by any means at all, rather than have this completely ignored, which seems to have been the case up until quite recently.
Again you are absolutely right, however as stated previously, our forefathers mis-informed us on health issues and we were lead to believe that there were none.
Ok, I can see that there have been problems. I do wish you well with this breed but I do think my earlier suggestion of getting someone with knowledge of breeding and genetics to help with this, would be the first step forward.
