Utonagans and Northern Inuits ????? Purpose ! Discussions

So how would you know if she is in fact able to run 20km in 50cm of snow and pull a heavy load in a 4-6 dog team? Guessing she can?

Form follows function, like someone with much more experience than I has said. A dog that is a fantastic worker CANNOT have severe faults in conformation as the breed standard for sibes has been written to note the perfect structure for a working dog. And I'm talking about real work now, not running you dog in a team of four for 5km every other day. I'm talking about running them in a team of 10-12 for at least 30-50 km for several days in a row. Are you really saying that an excellent working dog cannot be an excellent example of the breed standard? I would not use a dog for breeding if it did not have a good evaluation from a specialty show and from a Sibe judge.

The dog's capability is more important than whether it actually works? Hmmh. And how would you know if it is capable to work if you dont work the dog? So it is ok to go to any show and pic ten best looking sibes and fly them to Alaska to race in a long distance race? Erhm. Sorry, motivation to work does not have any outer sign. You just have to work the dog to see if it will. :smt002

Sorry, where did I talk about original character in utes/NIs?

This was not ment for me but it did make me wonder just how much you yourself think you know about Malamutes if you have never used a team of them to haul heavy loads in deep snow? I'm sorry, but to know an arctic, working dog breed, you must have tried this. At least ONCE. This is their element. I can honestly say I knew nothing about sibes and their minds until I did my first two hour trip with a team in a heavy snow fall.

I dont mean to sound rude but nobody is perfect. Why blame others for trying if you dont think you have to do the same effort? Live and learn.

This seems to be a "i live where there is SNOW and am able to work my dogs properly and you don't so you can't possibly KNOW what it's like to work a dog properly!"

If we all moved to where there is snow then YES we all probably would run them in the snow..

This is not what I meant. Remember, I wasnt the one bringing up the purpose of Utes / NIs and comparing them to breeds that "have a purpose". :smt002

I only said the working & snow bits to make a point that no-one is perfect and has done it all. No-one here has all the answers and knows everything about their breed and has experienced everything about that breed. The emptiest kettle makes the loudest noise. :smt001 And snow or the lack of it was not the issue here anyway, was it?

Well I never mentioned the purpose behind ute's/ni's..

the purpose of my dogs is to be here and be loved and give up love in return.. thats their purpose!!!...

You keep banging on about snow and that if we havent' worked our dogs over 50km of 20" deep snow then we haven't worked our dogs properly!!

I find that offensive.. IF we had snow we WOULD work them in it..BUT we don't.. is that our fault...

I think the point trying to be made is that people who own a specific breed *should* be able to answer questions on that breed.. not whether its being worked on snow

I do think Greywolf has a point in this. With the lack of any evidence to the contrary, it seems the Utes and NIs have been founded on dogs which have been chosen for reasons other than their physical and genetic health.

With the evidence coming to light that there are indeed health problems, would it not be prudent to screen for all, or at least the most serious, possible health issues before continuing breeding?

The case of Hip Dysplasia in the Ute (BMS 25 by my calculations) is one point. It seems hip evaluation was not considered necessary in either breed until quite recently when severe cases were reported. Given the background of the breeds, it should have been obvious that there was a probability that genetic diseases would surface.

There are posts in this thread that seem to be saying that there is no need to look for problems, or test for them until there is evidence that they exist in the breed. In a long established breed that would be considered the right course of action, as testing is not cheap and with some tests, there is trauma to the dog to consider. But when we are talking about a breed new in formation, it provides a unique opportunity to filter out the dogs that are least likely to contribute in a positive way to the future of the breed. This is easily done when the breed base is small and if it means reducing the gene pool to a dangerous level, then introducing new blood from the founder breeds would be advised.

Possibly the original founders of the NIs had the idea that by crossbreeding pedigree dogs, the health would be enhanced by the phenomenon - hybrid vigour, and so making health testing unnecessary. This works in the first generation to some extent, but as soon as you start to backcross and/or inbreed, which is unavoidable in creating a breed, the problems will start to surface.

It will take a few generations for the problems to become apparent in these breeds. I don’t know what health issues do exist apart from HD but I don’t think it does any good to blame certain breeders, or dogs for introducing specifics. What occurs in the NI, Ute, Tamaskan etc, will no doubt be present in all, if it is true that they are all from the same original stock.

Thanks for raising some very valid points Pod

Malady, can I ask you what your interest is in these breeds that can't be satisfied by what has alread been posted?

And should be for all dogs (loved, I mean) but I guess some people here think that is not enough for Utes/NIs (this is topic on the purpose of these breeds). :smt001 I only brought up purpose re other breeds for those people to see that no matter the breed, they are hardly ever used for the reason they were originally bred for.

I never said that. I said "A dog that is a fantastic worker CANNOT have severe faults in conformation as the breed standard for sibes has been written to note the perfect structure for a working dog. And I'm talking about real work now, not running you dog in a team of four for 5km every other day. I'm talking about running them in a team of 10-12 for at least 30-50 km for several days in a row." Which means just that. The Siberian standard was first written of the original Seppala's sibes who indeed did work that much. Since then the standard has been altered but still it has the same clear view on how a working dog should look like. I dont run my dogs 30-50km per day. Not even close.

Like I said before, lack of snow is a poor excuse for not working a sled dog.

Yes, I think most of us have answered your questions to the point they themselves know the answers. Have you tried contacting people who may know more than us (I regard myself as a novice in dogs)? Can you yourself name all the original lines of Malamutes and the original stock? The person who first made on effort to make malamute an official breed? The meaning of the siwash to the modern malamute? What about the first ever Champions in US? The winners of the first malamute weight pull ever in US?

I must admit I dont know but you are probably very correct.

Exactly! Thus we come to the moral of breeders again. I wouldnt buy another utonagan unless the parents were screened for HD/ED, HC & PHTVL/PHPV, VWD... And again I wouldnt get another utonagan unless it is a complete outcrossing out of the known lines.

Unfortunately that is how it works in the dog world, not just these breeds. I and a lot of others are in constant "battle" to get the Finnish Siberian Husky Club to join our breed into the Finnish Kennel Club's program for charting and controlling hereditary diseases (PEVISA) re HC. Some people do not see any problems in the breed where other see them. And you know why this is? A few ill dogs have to emerge so that breeders realise they will have to check their stock to get people buy their pups. :?

Malady I think if you go back to the beginning you will find that I actually awnsered questions 1, 2 & 3 for you.

Question 4 & 5 were really the same question worded differently & both related to whether mixing these 3 breeds with certain charactor traits was worth taking the risk & as stated earlier "that is a question for the more experienced, but however I am sure the founders took the breeds & all their traits into carefull consideration when starting out & only used dogs of the best temprements. I would imagine selective breeding played a pretty big role here too." I was not there in the beginning when the breed was created & therefore am not qualified to awnser this question.

Question 6 I awnsered with a personal opinion as to why I thought the breed warrented being in working class but after discussing it on this thread can see why maybe it wouldn't so for a more definitive awnser then go to the breeds society where you will likely get better awnsers.

If your not prepared to seek the proper anwsers from the relevent people then stop complaining about not knowing everything, the people on here are mostly only pet owners who love their dogs for what they are & don't want to get involved in all the politics, we have tried to help as best we can, sorry if that doesn't seem to be good enough.

Thinking on this I would have thought the question would have pretty much awnsered itself to be honest.

was this considered and accepted as worthy of taking the risk for ??

I would assume the awnser was yes it was worth taking the risk for, if the founders hadn't considered it worth taking the risk then surly they wouldn't have taken the risk & if they hadn't taken the risk then we wouldn't have had the wonderful Northern Inuit & Utonagan breeds.

HOW DARE YOU SAYING A THING LIKE THAT?
You are just insulted all dog lovers who don't know all the inside out of the breed they own!
For your infomation it's not that we are not ''bothered'' to research about our onw breed but there has been so many bitching around and so much politics, that there is so much you can digest before putting a stop at all that.
A lot is going on in a new breed and even though we have some answers, we're still trying to found out the right from the wrong (like i'm pretty sure in any new breeds that has been creating not only in recent years but for all breeds ... but i guess that isn't said in any books or societies about those breeds!!!)

I need to know what i need to know about the breed i own and if i need more information, i will contact the respective people i will need to contact.

Right now i am not promoting my breed i am enjoying my breed!

I will not accept being insulting by anybody and certainly not you for not knowing the breeds i own from a to z (i am not a breeder, just a dog owner).
You are way beyond the joke and you have been rude to all these people who have tried to answer your questions and even orientate you to the respective societies, inviting you to meet other dogs owners, etc ...

i think that the majority of this thread is a touching display of rudeness again. attempts to diffuse the anger and haughtiness have gone ignored i see

there are a select few people who are acting civilly, but as always, for the most part, it's degenerated in to typical ni/ute thread rude behaviour such a shame.

xx

doesnt it always lol
Tuuli, thankyou for trying
LS, my it takes a lot to get you rattled lass bless ya

I certainly don't think that this comment was called for Malady How dare you question us as dog lovers because we can't give you the answers you want, and when we do answer, you're still not satisfied My dogs are everything to me, and I know other feel the same about thier dogs. I find your comment extremely insulting

I think the majority of questions asked have been answered by NI and Ute's owners best abilities.
Most people only know the basic's of their breeds as most dog owners only keep their dogs as pets, nothing more. We can't all know everything, thats impossible even for the most experienced dog people it don't read to me as if anyone is trying to pass buck - infact I feel owners of Ute's and the NI have been more than patient and tolerant with some of the questions and statements put forward.
There may be genuine reasons why some of the questions cannot be answered, they are both relatively 'new' breeds and like any other it needs to proporly evolve before every single thing can be outlined and ruled out.
Being forwarded to the relevant societies is the right thing to do as those are the only people that could have all the answers to every question that you are asking. Unless owners have been with these breed from the start, they cannot know everything and you shouldn't expect them to.

Maybe some people should stop trying to antagonise and being abusive then Insinuating that we're not dog lovers because we haven't fully researched our breed is hardly getting off on the right foot, is it

Malady, I was passionate about Barney and still am.
He was a mongrel, he never had a days sick in his life till cancer killed him at 15years of age.
I think Ive made my point.

I am unclear as to your exact meaning from your statement, Zoundz, so forgive me, but I hope you are not generalising about NI/Ute owners here and that your comments apply to many of those who have taken part in this subject.

I for one am not in any way angry about genuine questions or concerns about the NI and Ute breeds. I think there have been many fair questions and statements, as I have mentioned. However I do object to being hounded and insulted when I genuinely cannot answer a question.

Many of us have unfortunately admitted we do not know all the answers and have given alternative contacts yet we are greeted with disdain. That in itself is disgraceful. What would they have us do - pretend we are experts? Lie perhaps? No, we try to be completely honest and are subjected to derisory comments, such as "How can you claim to be dog lovers and claim to be passionate about your breed, when you cannot be bothered to research your own breed ?". Do you think we enjoy admitting we can't give all the answers?

I am horrified. Clearly the love and attention, hours spent preparing food and home-cooked treats, cuddles, training, hours of walks and games of fetch and time spent nursing my dog from seizures isn't enough to qualify me as a dog lover.

I do not consider the OPs posts as fair; going so far as to accuse us of avoiding issues etc. when the fact is we don't know the answers, then accusing us of not being dog lovers.

The fact is - some people were able to answer some of the questions. Others weren't. Suggestions to take it further were dismissed. Thank God I didn't have that attitude at University or I would have left with nothing. Asking questions is good. Taking the initiative and not expecting to be spoon-fed is better. Not biting the hand that feeds you is wonderful and slating people because they can't answer a question is downright rude. I would not dream of spitting the dummy because, say, Zoundz could not answer all my questions about the history of the rat or take part in a genetic discussion about rats. Rather, I would be appreciative that she'd taken the time to bother to reply at all.

There are very few people that know everything about their breed or their chosen pet, whether dog, cat or rat or anything else for that matter - the list is endless. It is a matter of degree.

How many drive a car and actually know the R&D behind their model? Or the possible faults that may occur? Or how to fix it should it go wrong? How many who drive know the Highway Code off by heart? Oh not everyone? Then perhaps we shouldn't drive cars at all. Many people use break down services because these people know more than some of us about our vehicles. Or how about computers? Maybe I have no business having one because I had to ask on here for advice about my CDROM. Or perhaps I shouldn't have had a baby as I don't have a degree in childcare. I do have an excellent degree in a scientific subject though, but I wouldn't claim to be an expert - far from it. I'd be stupid to suggest otherwise.