Punish the Deed not the Breed - But How? Discussions

the horse passport is good but not great as yet, My horses are micro chipped,, its only really workable if the horse is chipped, lets face it, you go to a field with 3 grey shetland ponys in it and point to one pony and say the passport belongs to that one, well who whould know the diff? just as one rott next to another and many would not know the diff, even though all swirlls and so on have to be marked on a passport for horses its still easy to pass one horse off as another, so mirco chipping is esential for it to work, or FBranding but we wouldnt want to start doing that to dogs I dont think though I have to say its intantly noticable lol, I know it could lead to many dogs not recieving medical care and so on though! but mabey if the puplic were more vigilant about poorly kept or ill looking animals it could help. that said they would just fling the dog in a shed out of public view, ........... there is no easy answer to it really.

Don't they HAVE to be chipped for a passport to be issued?
To me compulsory chipping would be a start and not too expensive for people to have to do.
Becky

DEFRA started the passport system two years or so ago. At the beggining it wasnt complulsory to have a micro chip as many horses are FB and so on, To those that have not seen a passport for horses I will try to explain it, it is just like a passport with several pages in it, pages for med treatments to be marked into by your vet and so on, there is also two outline images of a horse eg both sides also one of the front view and face and one of the rear view
I am authorised to do passports for clydesdale horses and clydesdale X's or just about anything with clydesdale blood in it,
they are a nightmare It took me two days to do Paints passport, He is chestnut with flaxen mane and tail but his body lookes like a tin of white paint exploded near him, loads of big areas of white underneath and hundreds of spots. blotches and so on, hence the name Paint,
you need to mark in every marking on the horse, all face markings and flesh markings on nose, every swirril in the coat, hoof coulour is needed, any scars its a nightmare,
for some horses like the Fresians its a doddle, as you can see from the photo below,



Photo of paint, and this was the easy side, he has far more markings on the other side, sorry the photos is bad,




As I already had paint chipped I had hoped to avoid having to do all his markings. but it still has to be done,
Defra now I beleive due to the reason already given, eg one horse being passed on as another easily in breeds like the fresians, require that from 1st Jan 2007 that all FOALS must be micro chipped along with the passport for proof of ID, so guess there is a lesson to be learned there. but you still have to do all the markings on the horse as well as the chip

for passports to be of any worth they need to have a micro chip. hope that helps
shona

Off Topic, I love Fresians!
Becky

x_rose_x, dougiepit my last post was not an attack on x_rose_x it was just pointing out a few facts about differing breeds. Somebody said earlier about pertitioning for a dog license, which at first glance IS a good idea. But when you look further into what various governments have done with dda concerning bsl and other unimaginative legislation ( hand gun ban), it concerns me that we could be pertitioning for something that could penalise some of us. Believe me, no politician or bureacrat charged with reavaluating the law would
would bother looking on here to sift through the possible & impossible.
Now as I`ve said somewhere on this forum before the law abiding would sign up for this, lawless wouldn`t bother. The police would have a crackdown for a month or 2, then they wouldn`t bother.
The lawful would be out of pocket, the the lawless would laugh, but the government would be happy having more money in it`s coffers.
Like I said before, they did this sort of thing in Germany about 6,7 years ago & it resulted in a lot of dead dogs !
We need to be exact about exactly what we want before we sign up for anything & I mean anything that could penalise any one of our breeds, whether that breed is a fluffy Poodle or Bullterrier.
If I remember correctly Germany came up with a law that stated all dogs above a certain height and weight had to be sterilised( therefore the breed would die out ). The only breeds that escaped this were believe it or not German breeds e.g. Rottweiler, German Shepherd amongst others.
Their dda ended up with lots of lovely pets being destroyed, same as ours did concerning the pitbull. Amongst those destroyed were Staffs and EBT`s. Incidentally & off topic but the EBT "was" a much more popular breed than the Staff in Germany.
Did you also realise that Germany tried to get this legislation brought in all over Europe through the European courts.They failed but have not given up hope either.
For the above reasons I am just a little more than slightly worried for my dogs & breeds.
Dog owners should stick together but I feel that people who own what are classed as obedient breeds will desert the bull breed owners in droves, it`ll be a case of I`m alright Jack. I know that will not be every case, but there will be enough to let any government believe that they can get away with any old rubbish.
That`s why (apart from my reasons/rant in my previous post) I believe we should all be careful about what we ask for, we need to be entirely specific about what we are signing up for.
X_rose_x no offence was meant and I apologise if any was caused.

Hi, I probably jumped to her defence as I know her well, she has came to my training club loyaly for about a year now, with her BC, which she has not found to be easy, In fact its had me tearing my hair out and screaming for advice on the fourm, So guess it works both ways not all bull breeds are demonic, not all collies are easy, when it comes right down to it she is the hardest dog to work with that I have came across since the death of my loco collie which is the hardest dog I have ever owned, swear his head could rotate full circle, lol, anyway, no offence taken, honest, just got a bit protective as she is very young. not that she is not capable of putting her own defence up, believe me she is
I know the Germans are responsible for a lot of the changes in animal law at the moment, but dont really keep on top of it all,
Can some one tell me "are the goverment proposing that some change is made at the moment?"
Or are we debateing the who for's and why mabeys in antisipation of this happening,?
Not being smart or funny but I dont know, I have not seen tv for weeks ( never get a min, and if I do I tend to pop on here rather than plant myself in front of the tv )and the only real link I have at the moment is the forum,

I feel the goverment will not do anything re: any other breeds at the moment, they are pushing through to many other laws that dog owners are not to happy about, they may not want to shove any more than people can swallow down there necks at any one time,
I feel that if they do attempt to have a poke at other breeds at the moment most owners would have a fit, I would like to hope we all would look out for the other but thats just the way I like to see the world,
I for one would back bull breeds I have done rescue / rehab training for the ones on death row so to speak, with two that came staying with myself or freinds,
They bloated tubbs in parliment will prob get the docking ban shoved through with as little fuss as poss as I dont think they want to raise attention to it, kinda slip it through before joe soap the pet owner who is not showing / on a forum.; breeding realises its happening,
most of the people on the street so to speak have no idea, once they get that through who knows what next, Its like the hunting ban, pushed through ,,,,,, wait a bit,,,,,, docking next.......then who knows,
You cant smoke in scotland, you cant do this you cant do that
wonder where we will be 10 years from now, the mind boggles, we may all be living in another country that has not gone nuts,,,,,,,, lol

Dougiepit don`t you think the country has already gone nut`s, I do. If I remember correctly this thread is about dog license petition, those for, those against. I don`t believe the government are doing anything officially "yet", but the way Merseyside police sprung into action after that dog attack I think a bit of pressure was applied.
I saw a news reel on T.V. showing some of the dogs the police had confiscated, they didn`t show any dog fighting scars at all. They even had one out of it`s crate doing come, sit for a policeman (it was definitely a BT cross, possibly with a Staff).
That dog attack has a lot of bull breed owners scared, especially with the newspaper sensationalism, because of that I`ve had people move well out the way of me whilst walking my dogs in town. I`ve had other dog owners move well out of my way, haven`t noticed it before. I Usually have people come and speak to me about my/our dogs but not at the minute. My dogs are very well socialised,very friendly if not a little to eager to meet people( my bitch especially).
One last thing for those that believe a dog license would be cheap because it only cost 37 1/2p years ago, think again. This government would milk it for every penny they could get from it, personally I`d prefer to keep my money in my pocket so I can spend it on my family, my dogs, my self.
Dougiepit thanks for your words of support for bull breeds,
they need friends right now.If the government does act in a knee jerk reaction, and worse case scenario bull breeds get the chop the world will be a lot more boring & less friendly place without them.
Spain has used BSL, Germany has, France has, cities and states in the U.S.A. have, Canada has, it goes on and on.
But how many have actually sorted out bad owners?

When I go to shows through-out the summer I come face to face with loads of dogs ( thousands) and I can say I see every type of breed. The owners that take there dog are normally the owners that care for the animals well. ( I am not say those that dont go are any different)
I have seen plenty of Staffs walking round the crowds with no problems at all. In the last 17 years I have only noticed 2 dogs fighting and both of them were Labs.
But were I live there are a few owners who have only got there Staffs for a statement, they walk around with the largest studded harness I have ever seen, I think they think that make feel stronger.
Back to the point of this thread, in life there are those that do and those that dont, what ever laws come about in the future some will choose to ignore it, and it will be up to the rest to pay.
We wont just get away with the paying for the license, we will also have to cover the cost of those that dont pay.
They will need hundreds of inspectors doing there job.
As the government are losing millions of revenue from Tabasco, they are trying there hardest to cover the loss, and I reckon if they bring licenses back we will receive a pasting.

good old goverment eh!. Just as an example
many years ago anyone could dock there dog (I personaly dont think joe soap biteing the tails of puppys is fine btw) So they bring in laws to ban laymen docking tails, That to me was fine move out of the stone age and let qualified people do it namely the vet, this should have been an end to it, but then the BVA for whatever reason, say its unethical to do it for cosmetic reasons, So it all gets cloak and dagger and the CODB steps up for an yearly fee, you can have the list of vets that will dock your puppys, the min they stopped JSoap docking they made it harder to find a vet that would dock, why surely if the animals well being was the first priority, they would have made it easy to have them done by a vet, dont make alot of sence eh,

they give you time to get used to that then say sod it we are telling you that its not allowed any more,

people make quotes like 80% of the public want it banned
80% of the public have no idea its happening,
Its only people who breed, show or are very active in things like this forum that know, not pet home down the road that has a docked dog,

I have asked many people and they are like your kidding I had no idea, its not like the gov have brought it to the attention of people,,,, its the opposite, and by the time most folk realise its happend its to late,

its the same with this crud about cloneing dairy cattle, :twisted: why,???
years of breeding by farmers has ment that the milk yeild is very good form the cattle, if you ever see cattle coming into the shed twice daily for milking you would know, there ruddy udders are just about scrapping off the ground,
So cloneing would mean cows stuck in sheds and 3 or 4 times a day being stuck on the machine to be emptyed......
as apposed to out in field all night in first thing milked and back out till evening milked again then out for the night, they would not be able to walk with more milk than they have a present time, or they would have to be kept in day and night as I dont see any farmer bringing them in up to 4 times a day

IT COMES DOWN TO THIS IMO

what is the one thing in the country that has high value and is not as easy to aquire as it was years ago?????

LAND

every where you look they are building this or that, if you think back to an area when you were young and how it looked and then look again now its like a diff world,
god they are even building homes in other folks back gardens these days,
the council sold lots of its property off and now is running low and cant make enough money on the rents it has left to maintain the houses, its a cluster F***

what do farmers have plenty of LAND but oh bu**er the gov wants it for building,,,,,, if they do any more compulsory purchasing from them, it could lead to less produce eg less land less wheat, tatties and the likes, high cost in shops =[ unhappy people,
but if we clone the cows to ensure higher yeilds then GM the crops to produce tatties the size of melons, they will not need so many cows
not needing so much land so we can nip in again and do a compulsory purchase of the land,
then sell it to private developers for a fortune, a comp purchase sees the farmer getting a couple of grand an acre if hes lucky,
with planning permision it then sells for millions to developers, you would think oh er why dont the farmers get the planning perm and sell it, ha ha ha ha no way the council just messes them around,
but once they claw the land from them for peanuts it sits doing nowt for about 5 years and wham its on the market with the documents in place and all the silly sods that live in great britain will never know,

thats how I think the greasy gov work, the shower of poo that they are,,,,

If they do attemp another ban on this or that I for one will flip I have had enough of there bloody C*** and fight any further ban hand tooth and nail, experience has proved they chip away at things slowly and one day its gone,,,,,,,,, they can ****** of and leave our dogs alone thanks very much,,,,,,
feel so much better now, thanks rant over

Dougiepit you`re man after me own heart, I don`t trust this government one little bit.
Azz you said that people should be made to take training lessons, personally I think you`re wrong. Dangerous dog`s can do recall, sit, stay, as well, any license should be based on the person having a minimum Knowledge of a dog`s psychology. The person should be able to have & show enough knowledge of how to get a dog to behave & know it`s place in "society" & the home. Any license should be for owning dog`s, not a dog, it should also be a one off payment for life because the person person should be the one licensed not the dog/s. It could have add on criteria at an extra cost for those who wish to breed or import, this could be purchased at any time as long as you can prove your understanding of raising puppies & prove you have the facilities.
Gaz I happen to own a bullterrier & a Staff, occasionally I place an harness on my Bullterrier (it actually happens to give me a little more control & it`s got stud`s), but for the most part he wears a nylon collar & leash (easier to put on & take off, because I`m lazy). I for one don`t need a bullbreed with harness to make me look or feel rough & tough, I`m confident enough in myself. It just happens to stop him ckoking because he pulls for about the first 50 metres out of the house or car (saves him choking himself till he calms down). I happen to believe harnesses happen to look smart, but others have a pre-misconceived prejudice of their worth & feel threatened by dog`s wearing them ? Do not paint me with the same brush as a chav (I`m definitely not one), the way you phrased your thread you seem to think that people who use harnesses have something to prove, we`re not all like that.

AHEM bullterrier, I am not a man,
long story, my OH registered first on dogsey and I used to pop on and post under his registration, I had planned to change to my own but everyone has got kinda used to it now,,,,
my name is shona

You should do what I do with the rotts, I have had tee shirts made for them with slogans like Racisim(sp) N Rottweilers and Izzit Cos I is Black
if nowt else people that normaly would avoid walking by them have a giggle and often stop and talk,,,we all sufer to some extent whith bull/ large breed,, you just have to come up with ways to soften them, I also have blinky chians that people going to a disco would wear, When out in the evenings its a help as they can be seen by people and cars and again people will stop and chat,

I think thats a brilliant post.... a good positive way of dealing with this problem.. good on ya

thanks Ian, When It was just royce and mea it really didnt bother me, but once tegan came I walked her with the two adults, and then only weeks later Kaos came and still I walked them together, The were all flung in the jeep and taken to RSNH which has woods and open spaces also, its very popular with dog walkers, I must admit thats when I thought OMG it must be a bit intimidating for people that only know of rotts as bad dogs to see 4 coming round the corner, thats when I thought right what can I do to make it easyer, hence kaos is trained to wave to people and the like, every little helps eh,
I dont hold it against people that they are wary of them, its best just to try to understand there fears and many people that were really scared of them that now know my lot will stop and have a chat with other rotty owners and other large breeds, If your gona have them you have to try to do the ambassador bit lol

Absolutely, and to do so in such a positive and fun way is maybe a good lesson to us all I mean how intimidating can any dog be with a daft t-shirt on

Seriously though I think thats definately the way to deal with all the negativity thats flying around.

I always say that my dogs are super tuned into my feelings, lol you should see them when I have pmt (puttin-up-wi up mens tripe) they just know and stay away lol, so If I were to get ratty about it the dogs would pick up on it, and get defensive, and you dont wana get into a screaming match with anit-rott/dog folk when your out that would just make the dogs damn angry and add fuel to the fire,,,,,,"people would go off and say oh this girl with a pack of rotts gave me a right earful...... if you do get a right **** givin it oi those dogs are not allowed near decent people without being muzzeled, im phonin the police,,,, and I have had it shouted (from a distance I must add ) they are more bugged at being laughed at anyway, my attitude is ok mate I have a mobile you can use 999 calls are free so take your time, :smt044 :smt044 the nicer you are the worse they get lol

Oh, didn`t realise you weren`t a bloke Shona, thanks for letting me know though.
I didn`t get any reaction from people till that moron`s dog killed that little girl in St Helens, people don`t actually say anything they just prefer to walk out into a busy road to avoid my dogs (maybe it`s me they`re trying to avoid!),or pulling their dogs weeeeellllllllllll out of the way to let me & my brutes past. I don`t recall this happening before, at least not to this extent.
Invariably I believe a lot of the blame lies with the press reaction over the little girls death, the rest with people who have dogs but no idea of what dogs are or do.
I`m no expert but I believe 3 things can make a dog turn bad, bad breeding, bad owners, illness.
I`d been brought up with GSD`s, Yorkies & Jack Russels so had an idea of how a dog should be and how to achieve that. I also have a father who is damned fine at training dogs, all of which imparted some knowledge to me (say`s
me as my dog & bitch wrestle around on the floor making lots of growling noises).
To many people have no knowledge of how to treat an dog,
have no knowledge of various breeds differing traits & then go and invest in a dog that have no knowledge of. I read many books about BT`s & Staffs before even talking to breeders & owners. When it came to buying my 2nd BT I must have made 25/30 phone calls to get to the type of person I wanted my dog from. My Staff came from an home with 3 bitches and 1 dog, all with great temperaments.
How many people will go through that.
As for pit bulls, I believe these atre as good as any other breed. The only thing is there are a lot of unscrupulous breeders out there using the hard dog image to sell their pups. If any body doubts how good these dogs are they should watch The Dog Whisperer with a bloke called Cesar Milan, this fella owns 30 pit bulls as well as other breeds & they all mix together in the same huge compound. Most of the dogs he owns came with problems but he sorted them with his knowledge & patience. This man is a genius, although I`ve seen him bit a couple of times by other peoples dogs who`s problems he`s trying to solve.

Hi bullterrier, I have to say, I dont have an educated opinion on PB's as I have never met one, so anything I would say would be speculation or others words put into my mouth, I tend to think If you dont know about something then just say so rather than bluffing your way round it, I agree with what you have said on lack of knowlage its epidemic in the dog world even dare I say in some of the top show kennels,... oh yes they know what dog to put to another to produce the next winning dog, and they know all about whelping and rearing puppys, but they know f all about how there dogs think, what gets them going and what stops them, and are not capable of expanding its mind beyond training for the show ring,,,, stand and stare at some food, then run round and have your body touched,,,, not exactly rocket sience.... Before anyone jumps on me its not directed at all show owners just the vast majority,,,
I only learned about 7 years ago that all dogs are not the same ( I mean breed traits) As I had a BC and a GSD for many years prior to getting diff breeds I thought they all thought the same could be trained the same way and so on. When my rescue Bull Mastiff came I just put it down to him being loopy, not diffrent just daft, then when the second one came I noticed they did alot of thing the same way,,,,, then when the rotts came the same again,,,, every breed has there own way of doing things,,, so just because you owned a GSD when you were young does not mean you are the right type of person to own other large breeds,,,, I found out with my first litter of pups that just because the new homes were all checked and where good dog owners, did not mean they were good rottweiler owners,,, hence I started the training club,
I dont know whats got into me at the moment I am just so f off with the way we all get branded with the same iron,,,
I have spent a long time learning about dogs and I still have a long way to go, I really dont want some fat boffin from the gov telling me I now need to do this or that,,,
I know it seems a bit of a turn around from my thoughts not so long ago, but I have had it with the whole issue,,,
little chav f witts making our life a missery,,,, I think not,,, we should be thinking more along the lines of smack a chav today laws

Smack a chav isn`t very p.c, I bet you don`t work in local government ! They should all be given lots of hugs & told they`re doing the right thing, even when it`s wrong.
Any way I don`t believe I`ve ever met a Pit Bull but they can`t be that bad or they would never have become the most populace breed inthe States in the depression years of the 1920`s. Back in those day`s people wouldn`t have been so sentimental about taking a gun to a dog if it stepped out of line.
I read some where if my memory serves me correctly that the Pit Bulls imported to Britain in the 80`s came from Dutch fighting lines, although if I am wrong would somebody please correct me. If this is true it has probably compounded the problems the breed has had in this country. I originally come from a town that had a Pit Bull attack by 2 Pits on a man, they tore his face off. the police cornered them & I`ve been told 1 was shot 6/7 times. The owner of these dogs was basically forced to leave the city by the populace. I`m not sure if he did time. He`d been reported to the police before the attacks about his dogs but obviuosly nothing was done. The victim survived but still carries very obvious scars on his face.
If you get chance, watch the dog whisperer. The fellas just a little camp(not what you`d think a pit bull owner would be,stereotypes & all that), although he`s married. This fella shows exactly what can be achieved witha little knowledge & patience. Invariably, you watch what happens & can tell instantly whats caused the problems, almost always the owners.
Like I`ve said before I don`t like the idea of licensing, but if it happens I would rather it were me licensed & not the dog/s.
We should get rid of BSL and then replace it with deed related offences for which the owner is liable.

Shona, he`s on the box right now, Thursday 20:00 Sky 3. He`s on twice consecutively, one of tonights problems is a rotty.