Punish the Deed not the Breed - But How? Discussions

Frankie was free, cost me a fortune in petrol mind you driving to lancashire and back. So ok I can afford a micro-chip and he has been chipped, but lots of mixed breed dogs are given away for free. In fact there is a woman I bump into up the woods has an absolutely stunning red staffy and she was given that for free as an 8 week old pup by one of her neighbours.

some breeders already have the pups chipped and registered before they are homed and would be a good way to start as they can also have their details held if the dog is ever put into a situtation for re homing.

Exactly..my two youngest reprabates were chipped..one by the breeder when we picked her up (as she is trained to do so) and the other by a friend of the breeder who is a registered microchipper when we picked him up. The other I have all had chipped by my vet. I can say that having many dogs of many breeds for over 40 years in my own right and ocassionally breeding a litter I would be very happy to ensure any pups of mine were all chipped and carried some sort of log which had to be kept up-to-date for their entire lives, and would welcome any home checks, vet checks (my vet is only too happy to recommend me as he has worked with all my animals for well over 20 years). I would wholehearted welcome anything which ensures that any futere puppies/dogs of mine were monitored in some way for their entire lives.

I really don't think that compulsary training would work - sorry Azz, for many reasons; for some it would just be too impractical, distance involved, lack of classes available and good trainers...all of those in my case, and who would look after Megan when I go and which dogs would I take it would be impossible for me to take them all. So does that mean I could only have one dog so as I could take it to a class to be assessed, in spite of me having years of experience with dogs (and training many to high standards) being at home with them 24/7 to look after them ect. I'm sure there will be many personal reasons for others too why this would be totally impractical. While I agree that we need to do something we do all know that it would only affect the responsible owners anyway.

Loads of other reasons too..but have tyo run now..puppies want out!;-)

Why not? The current Laws and means of enforcement are not working - something which people have been saying for some time.

Last time you gave just the 'increase penalty' option, which of course I have doubts about. This time you have added more suggestions

With regards to your suggestions, how do you think they can be implemented?

I don't agree with micro-chipping or anything else for that matter being free, the govt (and non-dog owning public) would never pay for it so any system brought in place has to be self sufficient.

If we pay to drive cars we can pay to own dogs, which in my opinion are far more precious than a block of metal.

I think we could even move this thread to the 'Big Debate' section, as clearly there is more 'wrong' with the dog world than just what we are discussing here. Or perhaps start a new thread there.

Hi

I'm not sure if I understand what is meant by a 'test' do you mean people would have to take a written test or a test with their dog/s to show their leval of training or both?

If there was to be a compulsory training, how would that be set out...What I mean is there are so many different schools of thought how best to train dogs that I sort of like to choose from a variety of sources as to what works best for the dogs I have, rather than go to the local training classes where I may not agree or want to use some of their methods.

Would one particular method of training be chosen? What if people couldn't find a class that they felt suited their dogs needs and what they believed in near by? How would it be worked out...Lots of us sit and watch dog borstal or it's me or the dog or the Jan Fennels programs etc etc and disagree with their methods so who would govern which method was used for the tests? and if it was a any method so long as it ends in results was the rule then it can come back to what I said earlier, what if you can't find suitable classes near you because I wouldn't want to attend a class where I disagreed with their methods or maybe just didn't relate to the people running it.

That's the only thing that bothers me is that I might be pushed to going to some tin pot class that I didn't believe in that wouldn't suit my dogs just because it was the only one I could get to.

Also what about dogs that have issues with other dogs where putting them into a class of so many dogs is not the right thing for them at any point in time?

Maybe people could still do their own training for those that prefer to do so, but you could still just need to pass a test or something, so they could tell you the criteria you will need to set out to achieve and then choose to either go to classes or self teach (which ever works best for you)?

Saying that though, some dogs may never pass tests and may never attack...say, if they are dog aggressive and can't operate in tests that may include being around other dogs but yet their owner controls all situations responsibly and takes the necessary precautions.

What would the tests include? All types of obediance?...what about if recall was part of the test and you couldn't pass that because you owned one of the Northern breeds that in many cases don't recall well. Would you keep failing the test even though it is generally known that certain breeds don't fair well at recall? Or would you be able to state that you exercise your dog in public in such a way that it is never off leash and pass for taking the correct precautions?

I don't know, there are so many variables in dogs how would it be a 'one size fits all' type of test or could all these differences be catered for?

OK, after some thought, here's my opinion from a slightly different angle. Whatever we do, don't be encouraging the government to introduce new legislation, because they will go off half cocked and introduce all sorts that will make it very hard for people to enjoy dog ownership. The DDA needs to have breed specific sections stripped out. Penalties for being irresponsible with and/or abusing animals need to be stiffened.

In short, leave responsible owners to get on doing what they're doing and punish the irresponsible rather than the usual few spoilling it for everyone.

If the government really want to stick their oar in, how about producing a leaflet along with the RSPCA/Kennel Club about responsible ownership, detailing what makes a stable, happy, healthy pet - to be distributed through vets etc.

Well whether you agree with free micro-chipping or not certain members of society already get rather a lot for free in this country and if you visit the pdsa website you may see just how much each day is done for the pets of these people without any cost to them, a micro-chip would add little to that cost, and all dogs would need to be chipped in order for the scheme to work.
Sorry, but enjoy the debate without me for the next fortnight as I am off to sun myself in the caribbean.

there's an article in the Falkirk Hearald this week about the pit bull thing, not sure if I should copy it to the site as it has been done by another member of the site, that said she is not often on any ideas. guess if you put your views in the paper then you wish them to be read though?

Az said
Why not? The current Laws and means of enforcement are not working - something which people have been saying for some time.
Pointless Az, if the law was abided by Pit Bulls wouldnt be here, the child wouldnt of been killed, the dogs would not be in question yet again, therefore we wouldnt be discussing this.

People will always break the law regardless of what it says, its demonstrated every day, however I still dont think dictating to people that they must take training classes etc will work as most of these incidents happen in the home, where I doubt it would have the slightest baring on events.
Dawn.

This is not just about pit bulls in fact I think this is one of the first pit bull instances for a very very long time. The last three I recall of were by Rotties and GSDs:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/dogs.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2025474.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3045001.stm

There was another not so long ago here in Wales but I can't find the report, a girl was killed by two rotties who dragged her onto a roof. (found it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/5375520.stm)

As far as I know, none of those dogs mentioned in the attacks above, had a 'history' and it wouldn't be unfair to say that they were ticking time bombs, I have very little doubt in my mind that their upbringing and training, and owners knowledge was not sufficient, and was what ultimately led to the attacks/deaths.

You have little doubt training etc.. was what caused this childs death, I dont, not for one minute. I dont think that if that dog was taught to walk past other dogs, sit, lie down and come when asked it would of stopped that attack, same applies to the Rotties that killed the baby. Instinct kicks in, dogs attack, do you really think that you could of said "STOP" to that Pit Bull and ceased its attack?

My personal thoughts are that no matter what is suggested you will not, ever stop attacks in peoples homes, there are too many triggers and circumstances that arise that could not possibly be forseen and therefore prevented.

I would be perfectly happy for my dogs to be muzzled in public parks and kept on a lead also, but again its only outdoors that the behaviour is controlled, its indoors where the problem lies. can I ask you what you would do to prevent an unprovoked attack in a home environment, i mean how could you see something like a serious attack coming, if by all accounts the dog in question was previously perfectly well behaved?
Dawn.

I honestly DO think if the dog had been trained properly, it would of been less severe and the little girl could of still been here. :-(

The thing that needs to be remembered with both the attacks you mentioned above Dawn, is that neither of those dogs were family pets.
The rotties were guard dogs and the baby didnt live with them. As for the pitbull, i heard, the family had rules that when the little girl was there, the dog was to stay outside!
Obviously i cant say for definate because its the media who said it.

It's not just training - its the whole package, the training, the way a dog is brought to up to know its place in the 'pack' (extremely important for households with dominent breeds), the owners knowledge and common sense. All of these things play a part.

Let's look at one of the cases as an example (the two rotties one that Sara mentions above) and how these things that you think little of could have played a major part:

Upbringing/socialisation - if the dogs had been adequately socialised (especially with young children) would this have had an impact? I think so.

Training - not only does training teach a dog 'tricks', it shows it structure within it's human enviroment and to an extent reinforces pack hierachy - in particular, with other elements of upbringing, it tells the dog it should not be 'above' any human being.

Education/common sense - should you leave two rotties in the care of people who are not dog owners themselves? Especially with a very young child? NO! If the owners knew more about their breed they may have thought twice about leaving them for inexperienced people to dogsit.

I'm sure many of the rescues will attest to this, and that is that having very little doubt in our minds that possibly up to 90%+ of the time such attacks are down to human error. And so if we had compulsory training it would have a direct impact on that 90%... in fact it would probably have an impact on all such cases as the owners would be more knowledgable and more able to recognise unacceptable behaviour, which may lead them to seek advice from a qualified Vet.... before a major 'accident' takes place.

Im sorry Azz, but I just cannot agree with anything you have said, when a dog attacks it doesnt matter where you "think" he is in the pack, he KNOWS he's at the top! I think you are putting far too much faith in an aminal, they are not human beings and cannot be treated as such, they do not make informed decisions like us, they cant, they dont think things through before they carry out an attack, they dont know consequences of their actions. We will have to agree to disagree here Az.
Dawn.

Yet neighbours and friends said freely that the dog was regularly seen at the front of the house with the child making a fuss of it.
Dawn.

I have just been re-reading this thread and then went on to look at peoples profiles and I've discovered that every poster seems happy to have all dogs/puppies microchipped and issued with papers and possibly some sort of life-long log ect. A lot of very sensible suggestions have been made, however it is VERY interesting to me that so far the people who are insistent on compulsary dog training to date (and sorry as this is ONLY an observation) are 'newcomers' to the canine world (i.e. less than 5 years owning dogs) and with only one exception own one dog.
So perhaps owning a number of dogs and training them over many years gives us 'oldies' a slighly different perspective...or perhaps we're just too resistent to change. I don't know but I do think it's interesting!;-)

Oi...who you callin' an oldie????? :twisted: :smt002

I thave reread the last page or two and I see where both dawn and azz are coming from.
I think Dawn is saying, no amount of training would stop an attack like the ones in question, when they are actually occuring??? Which I agree with.
I think Azz is saying initial training and adequate socialisation would have prevented the attack...to which I say possibly...dependant on a lot of factors, which I think is also what dan is saying (the depending on a lot of factors bit).
Yes, all dogs should be adequately socialised etc, but if an attack is going to hapen, it will, particualrly in the home as, as Dawn says, there are so many potential triggers.

Sadly the incidents have happened and the factors leading up to them are so vast and varied it is almost not worth debating them IMO as it is not just to do with the dogs, if you see what I mean.
Anyway, training the owners...not sure that would have stopped the attacks, as you are relying on the owners to attend training and take it in and then put it into practice. How many people pass a driving test then drive like idiots? How many don't even bother with the tests and still drive???

Just like to add a little story to this thread.
A few years ago one of my friends who own champion gundogs was at a public advent, he sent his 9 year old Cocker of to find its scurry, when all of a sudden the dog turn round ran toward the public and bit a spectators leg. This needed 7 stitches.
No one could understand why this happened, the dogs had been entering competitions for 7 years and never hinted at doing this sort of thing before, now the dog does not go out in public.
This just proves to me you can never trust a dog totally regardless of its training.

I think some of you are putting too much emphasis on somewhat unavoidable and pretty rare instances, to which I agree, where training/socialisation etc may have minimal effect.

However I am talking about the bigger picture, and I think the simplest way to put it is in the language that most will understand:

If you have a large dominant breed such as a Rottie brought up in...

Household A)
A household full of doggy thickos/dumbos/idiots (in other words someone who has practically no idea about dogs let alone the requirements of such breeds)

and compare it to if the same dog was brought up in

Household B)
A household where the owners knew the breeds specific needs, and trained it correctly, socialised it thoroughly and basically ensured they did everything they possibly could to give it the required upbringing and longterm mental stimualtion/ongoing socialisation (or whatever else that breed may require)

Tell me, would the dogs mature the same? Or will dog from household A be far far far more likely to have behavioural problems as it matures?

If you think the answer is no it will not, I really will begin to worry about you.