Presa Canario - heading for the DDA list? Discussions

Darasa, you don't say whether you intend to take Jane up on her offer.

Reading other people's opinions online and reading books (I'd like to know which books as only a couple are in print, one is horribley misleading) is the FIRST and slightly less important part of reseaching a breed. The most important part is meeting the actual dogs. It is impossible to get a really clear picture without meeting dogs in the flesh.

I strongly suggest you take Jane up on her offer.

Liz.

The Character of the Presa Canario

What all breeders and owners of Presa Canario agree on is the impressive character that it has. The standard of the breed states: "their aspect denotes power. Severe gaze. Especially gifted for the function of guard and defense and traditionally for the conduction of cattle. Impetuous temperament, skilled fighter (tendency that shows for atavism), low and deep bark. He is gentle and noble in family and distrustful with the strangers. In the past he was used especially as fighting dog."

Through this description of the character of the Presa, it could be arrived to the conclusion that he is a versatile dog, able to develop several jobs: conduction of livestock, guard, defense, companion. Now well, the dog of Presa Canario is a dog of guard and defense par excellence. It is enough with seeing their impressive physical appearance and their severe gaze, deep, almost human, in order to stop but bravest from trying to penetrate the property of the protected. However, the Presa Canario is not just external aspect: it is an incorruptible and very territorial guardian, their work consists of to look after their territory and the people and animals that constitute the family environment. Nothing prefixes to their work: he could be enjoying the happiest moment in company of his master, delighting with a great food, or playing with the rest of congener that live together with him, if he considers that somebody or something puts his territory in danger he leaves everything at once in order to defend that with the most forceful form and effectiveness. Although they try to bribe it with any trick, either food, threats, good words, and even, in the case of the males, with the presence of a female in heat, he won't allow anybody franks his territory, unless his owner orders to him to stop in the guard. Anyone that who meets the Presa Canario is aware that their courage doesn't have limits, being able to any thing as such defending that he consider as his, opposing great resistance despite many beats and threats received.

Upon speaking the standard of "impetuous temperament" we should not understand that it is an aggressive dog; on the contrary, one of the most noted characteristics of the Presa is the security that has in itself, of which leads it to not attack unless provoked.

Habitually is the expression "it has much character" applied to an aggressive dog; it is a generalized confusion to identify the character with the aggressiveness. In most of the cases the aggressiveness is not symptom of character, but of insecurity and of the existence of any unbalance psychological in the dog. The character shows in a balanced and sure dog.

Concerning their "ability in order to fight," tendency that exhibits for atavism, considers that this has been product of their use in the past as dog of fight. At the present time, and fortunately, these customs have disappeared, and with them the idea that the Presa is a dog quarreler, that could not cross down the street with another of the same species without rushing to attack it. The Presa, as consequence of their security, it doesn't need to prove their strength looking for fight with their equal; now then, this doesn't mean that if it is attacked or threatened it is going to leave fleeing; on the contrary, he in that moment will show with whole might that, unfortunately,what made him the dog of Spanish fight par excellence.

The coexistence of the Presa Canario with other dogs isn't only is possible, but rather, also, it is simple. The upbringing of the Presas, together with other dogs since is puppies, facilitates the coexistence between them, and, for example, in the case of the dogs shows, it will permit us to present with worth mentioning our specimen are not without the occasioned fights and scandals as could happen in other breeds.

"Serious bark and profound" The Presa is not a dog excessively barking. On the contrary: the same as you think of their ancestor the Perro de Ganado Majorero, only he barks in the case he could not attack, he is say, a Presa that this looking after you and you are considered threatened he attacks and doesn't mediate any bark, only bark if he could not attack, well because he is tied or separated by a wall from the aggressor. When it barks, the Presa also impresses, because their voice is hoarse and profound.

"It is gentle and noble in family" This tells little of the fidelity and passion that the Presa Canario shows with his. The Presa "is known" to very little people, family and close friends, but to which they know them to have all type of celebrations and demonstrations of affection every time that you lend your attention. Concerning the relationship of the Presa with the children, it is fascinating see the care with which the dog "supports" the childish games, he never shows aggressiveness with them and it reveals their younger face, enjoying in countless occasions of their company..

"Distrustful with the strangers" It's not he is just distrusted, but rather it doesn't remove them the eye of above. The distrust of the Presa should not be confused with the insecurity. The distrust means that inclination of all the movements that it takes place with the stranger so that stranger could not plunder him so that he could not plunder you unaware in a hypothetical attack. Also, the Presa is a dog very observant and curious; nothing passes him unnoticed.

The Perro de Presa Canario is a calm dog, he don't enjoy the trouble. This lying or sitting down observing everything in their environment, and while nobody disturbs to you is observing everything the once that happens, it peacefully doesn't escape detail of what happens to their surroundings.

Concerning their attitude in front of the owner, I am supposed to tell that the Presa is not a dog shepherd, although it could carry out functions driving livestock, and this means that he will not follow their owner where he wants that it goes, the tell, it is not a dog dependent of their master. If I have to define to the Presa with a single word, in their relationship with the owner, it would tell that the dog is "hanging" of their master, he constantly observes you without missing detail of your movements, but he doesn't need a command in order to make the decisions that he considers necessary in order to solve an accidental situation.

It is not true that the Presa Canario is not adapted in order to live together in a flat (and I tell from my own experience). He doesn't only adapt perfectly to the housing, but rather he makes it enchanted, now then, like all the dogs, he needs a minimum time of exercise and daily amusement and once arrived back at home one will be in his place, to be near their owners, lying without bothering at all.

The magnified character of the Perro de Presa Canario is supposed to be inside a physical structure that completes the parameters of the standard radial, is tell, a Presa Canario is not serious if only has the single qualification a stupendous guardian character, but lack of typical, of the external morphology that is described in the canaria pattern of the breed elaborated by the Espanol Club of the Presa, of the same form that, in my opinion, neither is a Presa Canario that which it has a pretty physical appearance, but that demonstrates a total lack of character and an apathy or shyness that are not characteristic of the breed. It is necessary to look after, therefore, both aspects in order to could breed Presas Canarios. This work is in the hands of all the breeders of the breed. That we owe, selecting the crossings that we accomplished carefully in order to obtain a dog with the balanced but very pronounced character and with some physical qualities that conform to the racial pattern and that it will be the that we hope to be this year with the official recognition on the part of the Federation Cynological International- it triumphs internationally in the shows of beauty and it leads to our molosoids to get the international projection that deserves.

I don't want to finish without making a mention to the aptitude of the Perro de Presa Canario in order to overcome tests of work, civil training, RCI, Ahi etc. has dogs like "Volcán" property of Senor Escabar, that approximately comes to the degree 3 of RCI and that until now have achieved some excellent results.

It is evident that the Presa Canario is my passion, and it is because, although I also have another breed, I consider that he has all that I could request in a dog. I invite you to that you discover all the excellences of the Perro de Presa Canario.

Translated.
Maria Paloma Iglesias Sanz
[camarmena]

I did not and have not at any time stated that I am an expert on any Breed.. Including this one! I stated that I had done some reading about the breed as a whole, out of curiousity, I have researched if you can call it that on the internet, I did not say I had read any books but I did challenge Japs belief that books were NOT a reliable source of information about dog breeds, It is my belief that books and the internet are a fanastic source of information for those with the willingness to trawl through all the garbage out there.. unfortunately I did not have the foresight to realise that should I ever pass an opinion on them I would be expected to back it up with links to all the reading I have done.

I agree that you will never truely know a breed until you have met and spent time with that particular breed, research, regardless of how you do it,is in my opinion a very sensible place for any prospective dog owner to start.. particularly in the current dog market where some people seem to be driven by ££, and would happily sell any dog to anyone with no conscience about their suitability as an owner or the dogs place in their environment.

I will not be taking Jap up on her offer to meet her Presa's, from what Jap has posted she is clearly passionate about her dogs and if she says they are gentle giants then I see no reason for her to prove that point,

I think the point I was making has been missed entirely in this whole discussion.. so to reiterate, these dogs do not need to be banned, the breed needs to be protected from some of the people who do not know what they are undertaking and those that buy these as tools to aid their own voilent lifestyles, I clearly stated that I think that this breed and all breeds should be licenced for their own protection, I can only assume that the veiw I am anti Presa is because I quoted the term" baby eater" and stated that they are lethal in the wrong hands.. a point which I still stand by!

I have read that The Charachter of a Presa before and note that you have not highlighted the bits where it states
"he leaves everything at once in order to defend that with the most forceful form and effectiveness." or "he in that moment will show with whole might that, unfortunately,what made him the dog of Spanish fight par excellence."
So even in your selected text they are acknowledging the fact that this breed, as well as all of its good qualities, does have the ability to be a "fighting dog par excellence"


I found this on another Presa site.. not all that different from my opinion that they are great dogs in the right hands!
The Canary Dog requires a very dominant owner who understand the alpha nature in canines. No member of the family can be uncomfortable around the dog. Canaries make outstanding guard dogs. Just their appearance is a deterrent not to mention their ability to confront any intruder. In the wrong hands this dog can be dangerous, but with the right owner it can make a nice, devoted companion. This is not a breed for first time dog owners.


Rachel

Hi Lizzy

Well said, I could not have put it better if I had tried.

Hope family are all well.
=======================================
Darasa,

I am sorry that you will not be coming to see my dogs, maybe we can come and see you????

I did read your post and understood it. What gets me is what happens when someone who does not know about this breed reads your post, what would their opinion be then. Would they understand what you are saying. I doubt it, they would probably form an opinion that this breed should be exterminated from the face of the earth or wow I really must have one of those Powerful Aggressive Dogs.

The presa/dogo canario is NOT on the DDA but it is on the BSL along with approx 40 other breeds, the breeds being targeted are all guarding, herding and hunting. You will be unable to own a dog over 20kg unless you agree to conditions. This is wrong, in the words of the Kennel Club.
"PUNISH THE DEED AND NOT THE BREED"

My point to you is... do not voice an opinion on a breed you have never even met. Ask for opinions from actual owners, then you can make comments.

Yes any large breeds can be dangerous. The problem is they are larger and so could do more damage, but large breed dogs do not attack without reason, but when they do you look to why.

How long do you think it will be before the european union passes a bill (BSL) to stop large breed dogs?? Who knows but believe me when they have finished with us they will start on the small breeds next. Many countries in the EU already have with the staffordshire bull terriers, we may not belong to the EU "yet" but we for some reason abide by their rules. This is why staffy owners and clubs are up in arms.


I also feel that there ia a misunderstanding over the term "fighting dog"
We human beings made this breed fight, they are guarding and herding dogs (this is documented) Pitbulls are fighting dogs, they were breed to do only that job and no other.
Yes this breed can be dog aggressive (so can any other) I own three males and three females and apart from an occasional tiff over a female in heat, we live peacefully.

I agree in the wrong hands anything can be dangerous ie a gun, a car, a dog, drink

I am not weak minded. I am just very very passionate about my breed.

Jane

To be honest Jap I would hope that they would read my post and realise that these dogs are not suitable for every person who may want one, that they are strong dogs both physically and mentally and are not the best pet for someone with no experience, with puppys/dogs least of all a highly motivated dog like a presa..

The original thread was Presa headed for DDA, I, like any other member am entitled to pass an opinion, on wether they should be DDA'ed, this is a forum, thats why the topic was posted.. for opinions, I gave mine honestly..and not unfairly, based on the information available.. which is pretty much the same info that any prospective owner would have access too !! On an open forum anyone and evreyone is entitled to make a comment if they so wish.. Not just the owners of the breed in question...I really cannot see why my post is so contraversial, I posted more or less what others did with the excpetion of saying I had read about the breed. ... I may have been more forthright in my opinion, stating clearly that these dogs can be dangerous! many others had the same view that in the wrong hands these dogs are a "danger" but were maybe more tactful in their opinion, however the content is no more or less damaging to the Presa than my post

SEZ
"i know that the bull breeds do get picked on a lot,but its unfortunate that these powerful dogs fall into the wrong hands.we all know what fun loving family pets they make in the right homes with the right training,we also know the horrific outcome when they end up in the wrong homes with the wrong training,this is a very difficult one,none of us want to see headlines that a child has been savaged,none of us want to see beautiful dogs persecuted
sez and the gang xxx"

MINKY
I agree. I have heard that certain breeds are more predisposed to guarding behaviour etc than others. It's the neds that buy these dogs for this reason and actively encourage anti social behavior that need "put down" not the dogs

Helena54
I can only agree, wrong dog in the wrong hands. I'd have one as a guard dog anyday! In an ideal World people just wouldn't be able to go out and buy a killing machine, which any large/small breed can be trained to be, especially dogs like the pitbulls and maybe these. I know pitbulls are banned here, but they aren't elsewhere are they! You can't just go out and buy a kid if you feel like it, so how come anybody, especially these scums of the earth, can go out and buy one of these? I want laws to govern the sale of all dogs like this, not only coz they're dangerous in the wrong hands, but also the cruelty some inflict on them with the dog fighting too.

OLLY
Dont want to say the wrong thing and upset anybody , but must say that report taken at face value is very scary ,but dont feel in any position to judge as i dont know anything about this breed (other than what i just read )in the meantime i think i'll just prey not to meet one thats untrained or worse in the hands of an idiot

Those are some of the posts from the first 2 pages of this topic... I didn't look any further as I think that 2 pages worth of "quotes" is enough for even the most patient of people! Yes some of the comments I highlighted are are "out of context" , but those are the lines that will stick in people's minds...highlighted or not!!!
Had this been a thread about the characteristics/temprament of the Presa , I would not have assumed to "know" the breed expertly enough to post, but I did and do feel strongly that their is enough basic information out there to allow most intelligent people to conclude that these dogs are not a problem if owned & trained responsibly...however as I said originaly "handing these dogs to the wrong people is like giving a gun to a child and being shocked if someone gets shot!" thats not Anti Presa.. its annoyance at the fact that dog ownership is not regulated and that tabliod journalism makes much of the attack rather than address the issue of how dogs fall into the wrong hands inthe first place... sensationalism... dog attacks sell papers..protecting dogs from idiots.. way too boring!!

I don't doubt that Humans are responsible for fine tuning a dogs fighting instinct, wild dogs fight for food, supremacy etc but in my opinion humans taught dogs to fight/kill on command, or for fun/entertainment, the Presa has been bred for 450+ years for that purpose, origins of the Presa says these dogs were trained to kill/subdue cattle from the 1500's... I assumed it would take more than 30-40 yrs to breed that out of them?

I would have no problem meeting you or your dogs.. but I would not like to do so under the cloud of "making a point" ,there is no reason, I do not disbelieve what you say about your dogs,
But If you are fairly local to Portsmouth and you woud like to meet for a bit of fun and a walk I would love too!

Rachel

Wise words darasa. I fear many people aquiring a dog of this type may not be aware of the origins of the breed and its purpose, may have met one or two of 'good' temperament and formed an opinion based on these.

It's normal to have a wide range of temperament in any breed as the influence is from environment as well as heredity. An experienced owner may be able to suppress the inbred character traits but it only takes someone with the wrong intentions or probably more likely, a novice owner unable to do so, and the dog behaves as his genes dictate.

I highlighted the parts of text I did in relpy to your statement that these dogs are aggressive animals.

The differences between an aggressive dog and a defensive dog are enormous. They become more obvious the more experience you have with dogs.

Aggressive dogs do exist in this breed, but whilst so many people cry, "bad, irresponsible, ignorant owner", what about the dog's breeder? Breeders have to take responsibility for the health and temperament of the dogs they produce.

Anyway, to add my opinion to this thread, the whole issue of breeding is far more important than licensing individual dog owners. Dog licenses would achieve absolutely nothing, as always the decent owners with good dogs will obey regulations and license their animals, the morons who should not be allowed a hamster, let alone a dog, will not. They will buy poor dogs with bad nerves from disreputable breeders, and raise them incorrectly.

Breeders need to thoroughly test their breeding stock (both temperament and health), know their lines inside out and be very selective about who they sell pups to. I think it's also extremely important for breeders to stay in contact with new owners, the way Jane does. It's a wonderful thing to be able to call/email your breeder with any problems you may be having, and know they will help work them out. Unfortunately too many breeders take your cheque, send you off with a pup and are never heard from again. (BTW. neither of my dogs are from Jane, in fact we've not met yet, but I do have great respect for her love of this breed.)

I'm still unsure what is meant by "suppressing the inbred character traits"?? I assume you are of the opinion these dogs need to be taught not to kill anything that moves? The correct temperament of the Presa is such that it can interact with all manner of animals, people and children quite naturally.

Also, whilst it is very true these dogs are dominant and not right for everybody, first time dog owners (like Azz) have been known to do a damn good job raising them, providing they are willing to put some hard work in..!

I can't be bothered to go into the history of this breed in much detail, as basically breeders embellish certain aspects to help sell their pups, so it can be quite difficult to obtain the facts. However, it is a fact that the breed of Presa Canario was not officially recognised as a breed even in it's home country until January 1986. Before the 1970's the name Presa (roughly meaning 'holding dog') was given to any large dog which performed the job of subduing cattle for the butcher, castration etc. They did not kill cattle, but held onto them by the snout whilst the farmer did whatever he needed to the animal. It was only really during the 70's and 80's that breeders clubbed together to try and work towards anything that could be called a breed, and not just a type of dog.

"I don't doubt that Humans are responsible for fine tuning a dogs fighting instinct, wild dogs fight for food, supremacy etc but in my opinion humans taught dogs to fight/kill on command, or for fun/entertainment, the Presa has been bred for 450+ years for that purpose"

Sorry, which purpose? Fighting and killing? They were a farm dog, bred to help the farmer with cattle. Not by fighting and killing, but by getting a good firm bite on the cow/bulls nose and holding on. A dog that didn't hold on calmly, but tried to fight or kill, would have been culled by the farmer for not doing it's job correctly. Hence, as the standard states, these are very calm, stable dogs.

When the standard talks about a fighting dog, it means the ability to fight another dog, not people or cattle! As well as it's role as a cattle dog, the Presa was expected to kill any feral dogs that may have attacked animals on it's farm.... much the same as any of the flock guardians. The dogs were used in pre-arranged dog fights basically as entertainment for locals, prior to the prohibition of dog fighting in Spain (I believe it became illegal in the 50's), but they were never specifically bred as fighting dogs the way Pits were. It was just important to breed a dog that could handle itself if the need arose.

Thanks,

Liz.

PS. Thanks Jane! Hope you are all well too. Where's the new pup from? Good luck with her

Hi Lizzy

Breeds vary in temperament not just because of environmental influence but also because of the genes they carry. Selection for traits which make a breed good at his job means that the incidence of these genes in the breed will increase.

I know very little about the Presa but if there is dog fighting in his ancestry, there will be similar traits to those which make the Pitbull supreme at his job ie high within-species aggression, high pain threshold, stoicism and non display or recognition of the submission reflex, also no warning of attack given.

To make the Pitbull handleable in a fight situation, he must be non aggressive to humans but as the Presa is also a guard dog, this presumably only applies to his immediate family.

This is where the problem is for me. A breed is selected for fighting characteristics, is of impressive size and musculature and can be aggressive to strangers.

Breeds that are more often used as guards are from Herding origins and of course aggressive attacks do occur with these as with any breed but they don't tend to be so serious as the dog does not have the innate desire to fight to the death.

Not at all. You make a good start by not allowing aggressive incidents to occur. I think anyone with even the least experience of dogs knows that dogs of aggessive type that have experience of aggression are more likely to react that way.

Obviously not all of them are going to have the right genetic combination to make them potentially, dangerously aggressive but when one of this type turns up in the wrong home, the consequences could be horrible.

I agree that control of breeding would help enormously but sadly this seems to be impossible to implement. We've had the problem of puppy farmers for decades and still people continue to breed within the law for the wrong reasons. The only solution I see is Breed Specific Legislation.

Original post by lizzy
Sorry, which purpose? Fighting and killing? They were a farm dog, bred to help the farmer with cattle. Not by fighting and killing, but by getting a good firm bite on the cow/bulls nose and holding on. A dog that didn't hold on calmly, but tried to fight or kill, would have been culled by the farmer for not doing it's job correctly. Hence, as the standard states, these are very calm, stable dogs.

Yes Lizzy you are right they were farm dogs until humans taught them to fight and kill for fun and entertainment however their role as farm dogs did not stop at "getting a firm bite" on a nose..

"The mission of the holding dog were essentially to guard and to fight with cattle. Mention is made frequently to their service to butchers to subdue the cattle or tied up if for guard."




Whatever way we look at it and quote or highlight text to suit our specific argument this breed of dog has a history, where the best most "defensive/aggressive" animals were bred to get a more defensive/aggresive dog.. 300+ years of breeding to get the most defensive/aggresive traits cannot be undone overnight..or in my opinion, in 36 years
If these dogs were not loyal and defensive then they would not be prepared to fight to the death at the command of their master. sad but true, its is their loyalty to their humans that has cost them dear.


Original post by Lizzy
Breeders need to thoroughly test their breeding stock (both temperament and health), know their lines inside out and be very selective about who they sell pups to. I think it's also extremely important for breeders to stay in contact with new owners, the way Jane does. It's a wonderful thing to be able to call/email your breeder with any problems you may be having, and know they will help work them out. Unfortunately too many breeders take your cheque, send you off with a pup and are never heard from again. (BTW. neither of my dogs are from Jane, in fact we've not met yet, but I do have great respect for her love of this breed.)


Like you so rightly say breeders do have a responsibility to their breed


I didn't know that "jap" or jane is a breeder...it makes me wonder, why the opposition to people finding out for themselves via books or internet? surely as a breeder, someone who had bothered to find out a bit would be a better bet than someone who "wanted one cos their mate/auntie/brother has a really nice one"

Rachel

I hate this sort of thing and it`ll never go away whilst the media have such a negative outlook on bull type breeds. I can`t comment on this one breed as I have never met any, but I`ll bet the press have the public terrified of them before anyone really gets to know the breed.
We all need to do are best with are own dogs to promote their positive sides. Poor Pitbull owners. Their breeds name gets thrown into almost all negative dog press. Even some Bull breed owners are guilty of slating pitbulls in an effort to distance their own dog from the bad press they get. We are all afraid of the horror tales you hear about where innocent dogs are taken away just because of how they look.

"Yes Lizzy you are right they were farm dogs until humans taught them to fight and kill for fun and entertainment however their role as farm dogs did not stop at "getting a firm bite" on a nose.."

"The mission of the holding dog were essentially to guard and to fight with cattle. Mention is made frequently to their service to butchers to subdue the cattle or tied up if for guard."

Darasa, with all due respect, please do not try and correct me on my knowledge of the history of this breed. You may have read a bit on the internet in the past week or so, but I have spent almost 7 years researching it. I am in contact with owners and breeders all around the world and I live with 2 Presa Canarios.

To address your point it has to be stated that the word 'fight' in reference to the dogs work with cattle actually means 'grapple'. The text has been translated very literally from Spanish, hence some of the real meaning has been lost. It does not mean fight in the sense of bull baiting which you seem to be trying to infer. The dogs had to get a firm bite on the bull/cow's nose and to do so would have to chase and catch the animal. Once they had a good grip and the animal was still, the farmer would perform whatever task needed to be done. The farmers on the islands are not wealthy people, and they certainly do not have spare animals for their dogs to fight with for entertainment purposes.

Presa are still farm dogs on the islands.

Please state exactly what you mean by "fight and kill for entertainment". Unless you think the dogs themselves killed the cattle? Sorry to disappoint, but the dogs only held the animal whilst the farmer slit it's throat. Same with castration, dogs didn't do that either, just kept the bull reasonably still.

Liz.

Hi Pod.

"I know very little about the Presa but if there is dog fighting in his ancestry, there will be similar traits to those which make the Pitbull supreme at his job ie high within-species aggression, high pain threshold, stoicism and non display or recognition of the submission reflex, also no warning of attack given"

The dog fighting was always secondary to their job as farm dogs. They were never bred specifically to fight. They certainly do not behave in the same way as Pits. The Presa is very, very rarely the instigator. They will respond to a threat made by same size/larger dogs that could cause them physical harm, but generally ignore aggressive smaller dogs. Again unlike Pits, who will fight anything, even pups.

"Breeds that are more often used as guards are from Herding origins and of course aggressive attacks do occur with these as with any breed but they don't tend to be so serious as the dog does not have the innate desire to fight to the death."

Herding dogs and flock guardians are two very different types of dog. Herding dogs have very high prey drive, they essentially herd in the same way a wolf will stalk his prey, but obviously people have utilised this ability to move livestock around, not kill them! Flock guardians (Anatolian Shepherds, Caucasion and Central Asian Ovtcharka, Great Pyrenees, Presa etcetc) generally do not herd livestock, at least not in the conventional Border Collie way. A flock guardians job is to guard the flock. Any threat made to the livestock under a guardians protection will be neutralised. That will very often result in the death of the wolf/coyote/feral dog. Presa are not remotely unique in that sense.

"You make a good start by not allowing aggressive incidents to occur. I think anyone with even the least experience of dogs knows that dogs of aggessive type that have experience of aggression are more likely to react that way."

Obviously dogs that have shown aggression need close monitoring. In my opinion any dog that shows aggression frequently without reason is not a safe animal and should be humanely euthanised, whatever the breed. I don't see how this relates to the breed of Presa Canario? As already stated they are not an aggressive breed. They are not like Fila's, people outside the family can handle them and the dogs will generally bug people for kisses and cuddles once they know the stranger is welcome. When they meet new people these dogs should not react with an outward display of aggression, obviously unless that is how the new person is acting toward them/their family. The dogs are generally quiet and keep their distance for a time, they do not attack without reason or warning.

"Obviously not all of them are going to have the right genetic combination to make them potentially, dangerously aggressive but when one of this type turns up in the wrong home, the consequences could be horrible"

In fact very, very few of this breed are potentially dangerously aggressive. This breed is not supposed to be aggressive, the small number who are generally have temperament problems that are the fault of bad breeding, ie. breeding dogs with the incorrect temperament. Most cases of aggression in this breed (of which there are few) are due to bad nerves and fear aggression.

If you are pro breed specific legislation I suggest you go after the Labs, Spaniels and Terriers before the Presa. You are far more likely to be bitten by them than a Presa Canario. The most aggressive dog I know is a JRT, he may be small but if he attacked a child would do a significant amount of damage. However, I would never suggest that Jack Russells should be banned. Just that specific one!

I know I've failed to answer a lot of points, but I've had a pig of a day. Will try harder next time

Thanks,

Liz.

PS. You do realise that BSL doesn't do anything about the sort of scumbags that use dogs for violence/fighting/intimidation. All it does is kill thousands of much loved family members. Law abiding people who adore their animals will be the ones to lose their best friends, not the criminals. They always find ways to avoid the law. Hence the fact there are now more Pits in the UK than before the ban.

Lizzy

Thank you for clarifying what the term "fight" meant in that context.. I am not trying to infer anything about them being used for bull baiting..

With reference to fight and kill for entertainment, these dogs were used in dog fights for the entertainment of humans.. not that they kill cattle or castrate them for entertainment


Rachel

"The dog fighting was always secondary to their job as farm dogs. They were never bred specifically to fight. They certainly do not behave in the same way as Pits. The Presa is very, very rarely the instigator. They will respond to a threat made by same size/larger dogs that could cause them physical harm, but generally ignore aggressive smaller dogs. Again unlike Pits, who will fight anything, even pups."

Having read a bit more on the origins of the breed, it seems that the modern bloodlines may carry very little of the original dogs, having gone through a bottleneck and various breeds used in the reconstruction. I realise that not everything on the internet is correct but this does seem to be the general view. Pitbull is one of the breeds mentioned along with guarding breeds.

If there was vigorous selection for temperament, then they could be very different to the ancestral dogs.

" A flock guardians job is to guard the flock. Any threat made to the livestock under a guardians protection will be neutralised. That will very often result in the death of the wolf/coyote/feral dog. Presa are not remotely unique in that sense."

One essential charcteristic of the Livestock Guardian Dogs is their total lack of aggression to the animals they protect. It seems that the Presa does not fullfil the usual role of LGD.

"If you are pro breed specific legislation I suggest you go after the Labs, Spaniels and Terriers before the Presa. You are far more likely to be bitten by them than a Presa Canario. The most aggressive dog I know is a JRT, he may be small but if he attacked a child would do a significant amount of damage. However, I would never suggest that Jack Russells should be banned. Just that specific one!"

Considering the popularity of these three breeds, there are very few aggressive incidents involving them and I've never heard of any serious ones. The potential for this to happen is low.

"PS. You do realise that BSL doesn't do anything about the sort of scumbags that use dogs for violence/fighting/intimidation. All it does is kill thousands of much loved family members. Law abiding people who adore their animals will be the ones to lose their best friends, not the criminals. They always find ways to avoid the law. Hence the fact there are now more Pits in the UK than before the ban."

Yes I agree, there are big problems with BSL but the media hype given to certain breeds contributes to their popularity and it's a sad fact that the Presa quickly gained in popularity in the USA after the tragic case of a woman's death involving this breed. We shouldn't allow dogs of any breed to be abused in this way but breeds are chosen for a specific purpose.

With the enormous strides being made in DNA technology, we already have parentage ID by profile and breed identification will soon be readily available so should make proper implementation of BSL feasible.

Presa are one of my fave breeds of dogs but like any molosser breed they can fall in to the wrong hands, just like a collie can or a GSD because ive met and be bitten by a collie and never ever by a Molosser breed, If peope were to sit down and THINK about what dogs have gone or attacked them then how many Molosser breeds are on your list
Not while you have another dog in your hands as its more likely that the dog is going for your dog and then people say oh its trying to savage me

I think like abbas said many bull breed and mastiff breeders should think very wisely before handing them out to any old chav or harry
Also Luke made a very very good point, I doubt many people ever understand what a presa is or even seen one

Presa are powerful YES man eaters NO
Guarding Dogs YES Baby Killers NO

Please please stop thinking that power and guarding makes them bad with humans as it dont

If you enter the house with force or tyring to rob a house with a presa YES IT WILL GUARD so dont steal LOL and respect the dog
Its more than likely a Presa is poweful enough to drag you along when u walk (but trianing stops that)

Hi everyone,

My name is Beccy, and I am a proud owner of a Presa Canario named Freya. She is our family pet, now 17 weeks old. After having malamutes, huskies, and Danes for most of my life, I decided to have a different breed of dog. For me this was a big decision and not undertaken lightly as I have 2 small boys aged 3 and 4. I have a lot of experience with pack hierarchy within dogs and also the power and strength involved with large breeds. I love this breed of dog they are relatively easy to train and if pack is established early on they are so gentle. I do agree though, Freya at times can be headstrong about training and it takes time and patience to allow for some things to sink in this I think is where people go wrong. Instead of perseverance they give up and try different methods or possibly just think "oh well sit really isn’t that important, I’ll teach it to fetch instead." slowly but surely the dog realises ah so if I refuse I then get a fun thing to do and possibly a treat for doing so, this is where I believe irresponsible or maybe just not very well educated people about the breed go wrong. I have seen a multitude of sins demonstrated by people when training even down to telling the dog off and smacking the hind, people seem to think that because they are pack animals you have to be the most aggressive to be alpha dog and this simply isn’t the case. little things like eating first, walking through the door first, walking up and down the stairs first are all signs that you are alpha dog and teach the dog that this is the way it should be. I think people don’t realise that it’s relatively simple to scald a dog when naughty “you isolate it from its pack" this is the worst possible punishment for a pack animal to be excluded from the pack. It doesn’t always work for every dog but its somewhere to start. Since we got Freya at 15 weeks she now sits, stays, lays, fetches and has stopped mouthing when playing. We are working on commands for leave and no bark although those commands are a work in progress, as normally the temptation not to do so is enormous, especially if the boys are playing football or next doors dog is barking. My boys love her and she reciprocates this even though she knows she comes lower in the pecking order than them; however I would not leave her alone in their company. I believe the Presa’s appearance and short history of dog fighting for sport has clouded this beautiful breed’s name, some insurance companies won’t even insure them. I totally agree with other posts on here in regards to there are no bad dogs just bad owners and it would be such a shame to have this breed entered on the DDA. I believe that a breeder should vet where his puppies are going and possibly some sort of neutering/spaying for dogs that are like Freya going to be in domestic environments, I know some breeders will give you a contract to sign saying you cannot breed from the dog but in reality this cannot be monitored. The only way to rule out people breeding genetically and temperamentally incompatible/ inappropriate sire and dam is for the breeder to take the neutering/ spaying responsibility themselves. I know that this would mean the prices for dogs would go up but it may possibly reduce the amount of inappropriate owners or people wanting to breed for money.
My rant over for now sorry about the essay I would love to hear your views/ thoughts Beccy.