Positive vs Aversive Training

Discussion in 'General Dog Chat' started by Toedtoes, Sep 14, 2024.

  1. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    I use different dog accessories depending on what I am training for. My reactive Eddie would have an occasional week wearing his Halti for the extra control that it gave. I use a Halti cautiously, to guide the front end rather than to check the forward drive. I always use one in combination with a flat leather collar, using a double ended lead - this gives a nice balanced feeling, (unfortunate word considering the subject), rather like using a double bridle on a horse. Eddie was usually calmer when he had this extra support, I think it helped him to.switch off and allow me to be the lookout.
    For routine exercise, I like a nylon/chain half check collar. I used to use leather but the Beagles love water and nylon survives constant wetness better. I save my posh leather kit for trials these days though, for safety reasons, a half check collar should not be worn for a trial involving jumps A flat collar is the norm for obedience competition and check chains are banned under KC rules.
    In breed, I always showed the toys on a long fine nylon lead/half check combination. The colour to suit the dog's colour, or just occasionally, what I was wearing. These leads do not suit a Beagle though, as they interrupt the line from the neck into the shoulder. The majority of exhibitors use a very fine 30 inch check chain, which is tucked under the chin to move, but is long enough to allow it to be slid back over the shoulders when in the stack. Of course I resist this, and use an ultra fine rolled leather half check coupled with a light nylon lead. As I prefer to free stand my dogs, my aim to keep the leather under the chin.
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  3. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Your use of the halti on Eddie was very much like mine with the corgi. It was used to direct her movements without having to put pressure around her neck. Any collar (flat, martingale, slip, etc) triggered her if I tried to get her to go in a different direction. With the halti, I was able to direct her by her nose and that didn't trigger her. So I could lead her to the car, etc, without her having a violent rage.

    Ah, yes, I remember the collar positions for conformation. And the thin leads. My Dad actually had a good business going making thin leather leads for conformation. He had a variety of dyed soft leathers that he used. They'd be no more than 1/2 inch wide (usually 1/4 inch) and bunched up nicely in the hand. He made sturdier 6ft leads for obedience and casual use but they were still that very soft leather that bunched nicely. Unfortunately my last ones were stolen in the burglary.

    When I showed, it was choke chains required for obedience and half check (martingale) mostly used for conformation or the very thin nylon check collar.

    Every day, back then, they wore a flat collar with ID tags and I switched it out for the choke chain for walks.

    Over the years, I tried many different types. The haltis weren't that effective for my pullers and I worried about injury.

    Harnesses were just a pain to get on them when they were bouncing around like crazy wanting to go already. And I didn't really feel that they were effective for training purposes. Cat-dog came to me with a harness. I found it difficult to work with her fear issues. The martingale is easier to redirect her away from another dog.

    I always had a flat collar on the dogs at home in case they got out of the yard, but because they wore it all the time, I made sure it could easily slip over their head if caught on something. But if I also used the flat collar for walks, I had to adjust it tighter so they didn't slip out of it on walks. That again was a hassle when they just wanted to hurry up and go.

    I've settled on the martingale (half check). They always wear it with their ID tags. At rest, it is loose enough to slip over their heads (Tornado-dog pulled Cat-dog's off daily until this last year). On leash, I know that if they try to run off (or Cat-dog panics), it will tighten enough to stay on but not choke them. When we go out, I can just quickly attach the leash.

    Cat-dog currently has a cloth collar. It's softer than the nylon ones. Tornado-dog got a nylon one when his cloth one wore out simply because it was cheaper at the time. Cat-dog is due to get a new one.

    As mentioned, I normally use a 6ft leather lead. I currently have ones that have a traffic handle also which has been nice for Cat-dog. This last year, I did get a couple short nylon bungie leads to try. I really like them. I have 6ft ones (with traffic handles) in my Amazon cart for when I need to replace.

    One thing I did with when I first had two dogs was use "leash extenders". They are short 12-18 inch leads with snaps at either end. I use them as a coupler. Attaching one to each dog collar and then both to a metal ring and the standard lead to the ring also. I liked using them over standard couplers because I could unhook one dog from the ring and use the extender as a traffic lead separate from the other dog. It also had the benefit of training recall. The older dog was trained and when I attached the younger dog, I could call them and the older dog always came back bringing the younger dog along with them. Dog trained Bear-dog and then Moose-dog and Moose-dog trained Bat-dog. I don't use it much with these two because of Cat-dog's fears. We rarely go for walks without Aunt C walking Tornado-dog so I can focus on Cat-dog.

    The cats all have nylon harnesses and nylon bungie leads. They don't go anywhere without wearing their harness. Looney1 now wears his 24/7 because he thinks he's a dog and should go out back with them. I can just quickly attach his 15ft tether (about 14ft bunched up to create a weight so he doesn't jump the fence) and let him out.
  4. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    @Tone mine have ID tags on all the time. Years ago, I used those screw tags when camping. I would write our campsite number on a paper and put it inside the container. Unfortunately my dogs tended to unscrew them during the day.

    Now, I have engraved ID tags that have my cell number as well as my car and trailer plate numbers. This way, no matter where we are, if they are found the person can find me even if there is no cell coverage (which is most places where I camp).

    I also just got a couple Ring QR tags for them. If scanned it can provide more information than just the contact info. This is great for Cat-dog because if someone finds her they can scan her tag and read that she is terrified of dogs and needs medication daily.

    The cats all have the ID tags with cell and plate numbers attached to their harnesses.
  5. Tone

    Tone Member

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    I do have a leather flat collar that he used to wear but it was such a pain in the backside taking it on and off so he has a soft nylon fleece type one that just clips on and off and I can take it off and wash it when it gets really muddy, but I do like to take them off at night because he has on a couple of occasion's when he was a pup getting caught on the bottom drawer handle, but they go straight back on in the morning. I’ve never found his tag has ever come unscrewed as I’ve checked it just to make sure there is no water seeped in it and I struggle to get it undone sometimes. Bungy leads hmm I had to take one back once as it only lasted me around 3 weeks when he was really bad at pulling and then I realised it was the harness and not the lead that was making him do it, so I don’t use that at all now as I may aswell just got a skateboard and let him pull me around. To be honest it was all trial and error with him because I’d never had a dog that would pull really bad as he would. But now he’s beginning to calm down and the penny has dropped he isn’t going to get anywhere any quicker by pulling me because I’ve stopped, he isn’t so much of a pain. The months I’ve had in taking him round and round in circles stop start, backup just to keep him from pulling, people must of thought I’d lost the plot.
  6. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    I remember doing the circles with Bat-dog. It wasn't all the effective with her. I mostly just let her grow up some and then she was able to walk politely.

    Tornado-dog is a good walker but he gets frustrated with his Aunt C. She doesn't pay attention so when he wants to stop and sniff, she's pulling him on. He says SHE needs the training not him.
  7. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    My worst purchase was a waist-belt bungee lead, (like a short Cani X lead). When I was on crutches I thought it might allow me to walk little Tal. It was hopeless, we didn't even make it to the end of the road!
    I have little engraved discs on all of my collars - except the one that I use for shows, which is probably when a hound might have the greatest chance to make a bid for freedom. If I replace a normal collar after bathing, they end up with a ring round their neck. Dog folk can be very contradictory. :102:
    (BTW I was discharged from hospital today. The surgeon told me that I was doing much more than I should be able to do at 6 weeks post op. Perhaps time to sort out my lumpy wrists, and the loss of muscle on my left thumb now).
    Re. the screw type ID holders. Lots of dogs lose the important part, even the type that you can tighten with a screwdriver. If you put a drop of superglue on the thread when you screw them up, this has a much greater chance of staying sealed, but can still be forced open if it was necessary.
  8. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    I tried a waist-belt lead once. We didn't get anywhere with it either. With the bungee lead, I retain the control of the lead but lessen the jarring if the dog yanks or pulls. Very nice with Cat-dog who will try to rush to the car in a parking lot.
  9. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    With a waist lead and crutches, the dog fans ahead and the lead can whip a crutch from under you. You really need a third hand to be able to adjust the length of the lead. If she spotted a cat under a car, or a squirrel, the waist would shoot forward, leaving the legs and sticks to catch up. It must have looked hysterical.
  10. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Reminds me of Bat-dog and Moose-dog on the coupler. We camped in winter a lot and were often the only ones in the campground. When we were, I'd drop their leash and let them race around hooked together. If they got too far away, I'd call them back. Then I'd have to brace myself because 9 times out of 10, they'd run past me on either side of me and trip me in their coupler.
  11. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Congrats on the fast recovery time @CaroleC !!! That's great news!

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