Pastoral breeds - working or show strain? Discussions

Hi Moobli.
I said they work their dogs not compete them, the percentage of working collies that are actually competing at trials out of those that are working is small just as the amount of kc reg dogs that are showing out of the number registered is small.
I guess it's the case that a lot of people who work their collies don't neccessarily compete with them at trials. I know of a lot of farmers through the work that I do that simply work their dogs. They neither have the time or the inclination to compete them. They just want a dog that will do the job they want them too.
Just out of interest, if you have never worked a showline collie how can you make a preference out of the two?
There are good and bad examples in both lines. You can have a pup from total working lines that is useless at working sheep.

To a trained eye, some people can pick out certain breeding from type but to be honest I would say not in the main.
The thing with show dogs (and not all of them) but they are in the main slightly longer coats with New Zealand breeding. However take away all the coat and what is judged is the confirmation of the dog and the movement in the showing sense from the Breed Standard. The dogs intelligence or working ability is not actually being judged at a breed show.You have KC registered dogs and ISDS dogs in the ring, mainly KC to be fair. The dog in the ring is supposed to have the confirmation and movement to suggest it could do the job it was intended for. To be honest some can and you would be doubtful of others.
People say that the show collies are flashier than the working types. Perhaps they are in the main, however their are dogs out in the fields right now that could hold their own in the ring and are just as flashy.
It's each to their own to be honest. I'm glad their is a varient in this breed as it gives a potential collie owner some choice of what to look for when getting this breed.

I would like to see a KC collie working - I am sure there are some that can I just haven't come across any as yet. :?

To stack the odds in your favour, if you want to work your dog, then the best place to find a suitable pup is from working parents with a good work track record, not just one generation, but several. Of course, as in everything, there are good and bad, but when a dog has been bred for the show ring then the work side becomes less and less important, and by diluting the work ethic, you end up with less worky dogs.

I would go so far as to say that some show lines you see in this country now would never be able to do half an hour's work, let alone a full day.

Just my opinion of course

Personally I would only be able to hazard a guess, but I know of people who can even tell which lines a dog has come from just by the way it looks/works

Definitely I know there are plenty of people in the breed who feel they should be work dogs only, but I don't think that this is realistic and with so many collies in pet homes it is preferable that there are different types for different needs.

Yes I agree that the majority of farmers want a dog just to do the job (rather than to compete), but I would bet that there are no farmers at all in this country that have a show bred dog for that work. I am happy to be proved wrong

My 4 BC's, Boomer was a rescue, but he's smooth coated, so must be from working lines, Bertie is from show lines and he definately lacks stamina, Teagan is ISDS registered and Skye is from agility lines, her mum is ISDS registered (but 3 generations haven't worked sheep they've been agility dogs) and her dad is half working and half show lines. The 2 girls are always there, 'what can we do next!' and Boomer could play ball all day even at 11 1/2 years old, they are so different from Bertie.

I'm proving you wrong LOL
You are right in the main, most of the dogs come from the stronger working line. The typical person who works a dog has a collie from stronger working lines.
Then you have those who work there dogs and also do other activities such as showing, agility, flyball, obedience etc. It's finding the right dog and the right line to suit your work. The two do slightly overlap, if your looking for an obedience dog, some will dip into the working and showing line to get the correct mix. There are those that show who also have dogs to work so they combine the two. It all depends what you want and what type is best for you.
Don't be fooled by some of the show dogs. Because they are so full in coat they look heavy. But alot of the time it is just in fact that coat. My boy looks solid. If you look at him after having a bath though or after swimming, it's quite a surprise what he shrinks down too
I do agree that there are showdogs that you look at and think they can't do what they are supposed too., however there are those that work quite happily, show, do obedience and are a good allrounder.
I think it's finding the best kind of Border collie for what you want to use it for. For my lifestyle I would not want a heavily working type dog with very strong instinct. It wouldn't be fair on the dog. There are too many dogs in collie rescue that have come from working lines to a pet home and gone slowly mad.
I remember when I was first looking many years ago for a dog, I was turned down by some people as they thought the working line was too strong for what I wanted to do (showing wasn't an interest at the time) I totally respected that. I'm happy with my lot and they fit in happily enough with what I can do with them.
Your interest is working your dogs and you have the facilities to be able to do that (throwing envious glances at you).
Again, I think it's great that you have different lines and types as it gives you the scope to find the right dog for the right interest.

I don't mean to drag this out - honest , but you haven't proved me wrong. If you can show me a farmer/shepherd who works their dog on a daily basis in this country who owns a KC registered collie, then you would be proving me wrong

I think you said that your work brings you into contact with a lot of farmers - if so, why not ask them what they think of working a KC border collie. I imagine some of their answers will be fairly amusing Also, if you wish to have a go at herding with your show collie boy, why not ask one of these farmers if he is prepared to let you have a go. I am sure one or two would be happy to oblige.

The variety of collies now bred is indeed amazing. I personally will always go with ISDS registered, but think it is sensible that there are also show line with much less oomph and working instinct, as well as obedience lines, agility lines - who have now been bred for a good few generations with these sports in mind. It is all about selecting the right breeding for what you want to do - as you have said

I know of a few farmers/shepherds who will only sell their pups to working homes - ie working stock. I actually wish there were more of this, and then fewer working bred collies would end up in totally unsuitable homes, and ultimately often in rescue kennels :-(

Moobli
I'm not posting personal website links on here just to prove a point. I will however quite happily pm you with some info.
If you think every collie that works in this country is only working ISDS lines then that is a narrow minded view to be honest. You haven't been to every trial, competition in the country. So what point are you trying to make? Why does everyone else have to supply you with the proof. This post is coming across as the old concensus which you get from some people that show people have ruined the breed. It's been said and heard so many times before and to be honest I find it condescending to those people even I know that have spent decades in trying to improve the health and future of the breed from whatever angle they are coming from.
Rather than seeing things from one side, why don't you come along to some shows and chat to some of these people that show and work their dogs.

Moobli
As I had already posted, one my friends who is a shepherd in Scotland (in the Cheviots) did do some work with my boy over a period of a week and he was very impressed with his natural herding working instinct (have to admit so was I)
He naturally picked up the flock and worked them round the field. This was a shepherd who had worked dogs for more than 30 years and felt my boy had great potential which I was flattered about.
Now as you know as your training yourself. It takes a lot of training to make a good dog. As I don't have the facility to work my dog regularly then it's something I can't follow up with him. If I ever do in the future though, I'll take picture and make sure you have a copy

As for asking the people that I work with, yes some have KC lines, some with both KC reg and ISDS lines and some solely ISDS lines. Although as I've already conceded the working lines are larger in numbers.

You said at the beginning of this post your preference was for the working type but that you weren't putting down the show dog but it seems thats what you have done and just try to ridicule them. I think it's a shame cos at the end of the day if you love the breed, you love the breed. They all have that intelligence, that loyalty, and that want to work and please you.

I am sorry if my post offended you Megan - that really wasn't the intention. I would be happy (and very interested) to see a KC dog working sheep - not because I don't believe that any show-line CAN, but simply to see the differences that may occur in method or style. If you have some website links please PM them to me.

I don't feel that I have made any sweeping statements - just given my own opinion from experience and talking to others. Of course I haven't been to every trial or spoken to everyone who owns a working collie, but I think it stands to reason that most farmers/shepherds buy unregistered working line or ISDS registered pups. I wasn't talking about people who show, compete in agility, flyball etc etc , I was talking about farmers and shepherds who use this wonderful breed in their every day work.

I wouldn't ever say that show people have ruined the breed, but just that they have produced a different type of border collie to the one that can work tirelessly all day. That is my opinion.

To be honest, dog shows do nothing for me, so I wouldn't want to attend any - I have been in the past, however I would be interested in chatting to people who show and work.

Are there any members on here who show and work?

That is great and no wonder you were flattered Sorry about having to keep picking quotes out of yours posts, but I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing :?

Hi Moobli
Showing isn't for you and that's fine. To be honest it wasn't an interest for me until someone said to try it with my bitch.
I'm hooked on showing now mainly because of all the great people I have met not only in my breed but in many others. To me it's a great day out to enjoy with other dog lovers. I have been to a few trials and thoroughly enjoy it. Put me in a field with a load of collies and i'm happy.
I've told you before if you want a KC dog to train. Take my boy. No please, really take him, because i've yet to tire him out.

I am certainly not putting down the show dog, or ridiculing the show collie. It is each to their own.

I hate to say it, but working him on sheep for even just half an hour would tire him out I just wish you had the facilities and time to do it - I appreciate I am really lucky in that respect.

I've seen your boyfriends place. There's plenty of room for me to put a tent up. Think of it as a live out lodger

No problem!

Rocks Mother is a KC and ISDS reg collie - she is neither shown nor trailled but works the woolies on a daily basis at her farm.

His Dad also KC reg and ISDS works sheep.

He himself is neither KC nor ISDS although eligible for both and loves some time on sheep but it happens very rarely these days