Opinions On Crossing GSDs with NIDs Controversial

Hi Akna
Purebred figures would be great, also if you knew how many of them had been returned due to being unsuitable would also be great.

Crosses of - has anybody even cared enough to do a count, is there a register in place?

I very much like the CSV and Saarloos but am at the same time very aware of them needing owners who are aware of their needs, when crossed with the wolf lookalikes (who also in my opinion need owners aware of their needs) well it can be hard enough for your everyday family to cope with a wolf lookalike (mix of northern breeds) without adding CSV and Saarloos - if you see what i mean?
I hope you do, i'm looking for a discussion not a bitching session.

Whose wolfdog had a hipscore of 42? Purebreds i could only hazzard a guess only Andre could confirm that. Crosses yes again definate lists but Andre again but that would not count for all! I love my csv cross but he is not for a beginner even though my son handles him in YKC but my son is a better dog handler than most children because of the dogs we own and are involved with. I have met people who have had problems with their wolfdog cross and their inuits! Most is usual problematic dog behaviour associated with lots of breeds...although most of this sort of behaviour i feel could of been prevented if owners were a lot firmer in the outset! I have had it with puppies people have had from me and also people do not always listen to what you tell them or give them to read! I give 5 pages of information plus free puppy training, plus 365, 24hr a day free advice and still i have encountered the odd hiccupp. Nothing drastic though thank fully. Im glad someone is here to discuss rather than attack i am always willing to talk. I personally am not a fan or the saarloos, i find them too shy for my liking. I like an outgoing dog with a good level of fitness and vitality and i think all my dogs reflect that. Sometimes dogs do seem to reflect what their owners put upon them, good and bad!

Loupy lou. Of course she figures in so many crossbred pedigrees doesnt she, how many litters has she had 4? 5?

What is the point of these breeders having their dogs health tested if they take no notice of the bad results and breed from them anyway.

£££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

It is a shame. Someone I know of , who claims to be a big dog person, experienced etc, scored her inuit bitch after a litter (said she couldn't afford it before having a litter) , her score was in the 40s, she rehomed the bitch (no good to her if she couldn't make money from her )to a home without having her spayed and then, the bitch got rehomed yet again as the owner couldn't or wouldn't cope with an adult dog who wasn't house trained, so sad.

Yes, no thought for the health of the dogs and pups then.

"Reine De La Nuit" is on my csv cross pedigree. Her daughter is a 3-3 and is the mother of my boy who is an 8-4. All siblings in her litter were below average. So is a high hip score genetic? Is a high hip score a reason not to breed? A hip score is a guide line means score NOT a rule. If a breed was a rare breed and hips were high but all health was good would it be right not to breed and loose the breed altogether? Not all who breed do so for money.

Shame on them, it really makes my blood boil, only the poor dogs and pups end up suffering, all for the sake of money.

I have learnt one thing and that is that people want money , same with cat breeders and that breeding , for some, seems an easy way to earn a few quid. Of course there are decent breeders out there too, but I wish that people would be upfront and honest, let the 'true' breeders do it properly and let us , the public, have the choice to seperate the bad from the good. Of course in an ideal world all breeders would do it properly and for the right reasons but sadly it is not an ideal world and we all have different opinions on what is right and wrong both morally and ethically.

But if the hip score is high the health is not good - - parts of it may be....but do you really want a dog that may be perfectly healthy in every way...but goes off its back legs at 7....

If health is a problem in a small gene pool then that needs to be corrected in other ways...looking at controlled crossbreeding maybe....but using a small gene pool to justify breeding from a dog with a know hereditery health issue is just wrong IMO.

It is genetic but can be influenced by trauma, in which case, the score would likely be uneven. It has been proven in many studies that breeding from below average scores will lower the breed average. If the gene pool is limited, then breeding from only low scoring stock may limit it further, potentially resulting in more problems. In which case, I would hope that breeders would consult a geneticist for advice and to devise a breeding programme which would reduce incidence of HD/high scores, not just breed willy nilly and hope for the best - that's irresponsible in my book and will not be doing the breed any favours.

You know, I really cannot believe you can even begin to defend it, then again, I can!

Thanks Akna
I have taken out the first part of your quote as you say the only person who can answer this question or give this information is Andre and as that is unlikely to happen so seems irrelevant in this thread.
Personally as regards the Saarloos i have no problem with shyness, one of my own dogs is very shy, i can however see the problems that most 'joe bloggs' pet owner family's would have with this type of behaviour. My number 1 concern and it has always been my number 1 concern is that breeders of dogs (any type) do not always choose the correct owner to place their puppy with. No offence directed at yourself at all but it would 'seem' to me that for the majority of breeders of this type of dog that little thought is put into the type of owner when it comes to sales in the U.K.
It (again 'seems') all that matters is producing and selling them. There does 'seem' to be a lot of pups available from this type of dog in a very short period of time and none of those pups have actually reached maturity yet for anyone to honestly be able to say what behaviour you can expect from them.
I'd like to ask respectfully what your thoughts are on this?
Thanks for reading, Liz

A high hip score can be environmental (eg the result of an accident), but yes it is genetic for the most part. Is a high hip score a reason not to breed, YES OF COURSE! If a dog is bred with a knowingly high hip score, and this results in a pup being affected then this is the breeders fault. If a dog they bred is in pain and practically crippled because of this, then the breeder is as much responsible as if they had personally crippled the dog themselves and they should be held to account. JMO of course.

This score was pretty even both sides which furthermore denotes genetic inherited Hip Dysplasia. Trauma related high scores tend to be dominated on one side by the high score. My friends champion Lab scored 15:3, the 15 side was the side he was hit by a car at 8mths old.

Breeding for breedings sake is a disgrace, such people should be ashamed of themselves, I doubt any of the people breeding this type of dog have ever seen one reach old age, yet they are experts on all things to do with them!! Some even state on their site they only breed from suitable low scoring parents, what a joke!!

Not to put words in Dawns mouth....but IMO people should be breeding to further a breed, to help produce dogs that are better for working, better in health and better in temperment than the previous generation.

Breeding whatever becasue there happens to be a market for a particular type of dog is just a poor excuse and certainly goes to the ethics of the breeder.

I must admit this is a bit close to puppy farming so i agree with Tassle here.

A breeder should want to improve on the dogs they have and take pride in the dogs they produce. Not think 'oh well its only a pet home, lets just meet the demand'.

Whats the point in doing testing if its going to be ingnored (sp?) anyway? Maybe a few points over the mean if the dog is otherwise outstanding and is a new line as the dog has a lot else to offer. This score was 3 times higher then the mean though, IMO there was NO reason good enough to justifiy breeding her.

I agree, well said.