Non Alsatian/GSD owners, your opinions appreciated please Discussions

Again this is not correct, the overlong bodies of the English type does cause serious health problems with the spine, the analogy does not hold up, a dog is not a car.

So you think these are the correct type as they are English trained to stand in showstance, not pets.
http://www.alsatiansuk.com/Nov08/nov08bisresbis.html

these are recent pics not old ones.

Sorry yopur wrong there as I have told you in the past I do keep records for the breed, even those that do bother to hip score rarily any other test in the English type ignore the results and breed reguardless, whereas in the Germanic type in the UK we name and shame breeders who dont health test or who breed from high hip and elbow scores. Plus reread your post you have contradicted yourself. There are no mandatory health tests yet in the UK but the Germanic type do theres a big difference.
Re back firstly they are not 'banana' backed as you have been shown numerous times when not in stance the topline slopes to croup as supposed with no roach. The length of back in the English type is too long this as come from jet of seal along with paling colours, along with ludwig of charavigne who was used excessively that is why the over long backs continue to excist in that type.

Excuse me ? Why the venomous rude tone ? The dog is Zamp Von Thermodos. feel free to apologise :

http://www.worldclassgsd.com/World_Sieger/zamp_thermodos3.htm

The analogy is good enough, it does`nt matter how well one part works if adjoining parts are not up to par.
Dog B looks uncomfortable and unnatural.

They are posted on the net, I have identified the dog and have not claimed the pictures of dog B as my own photo`s, the photos of dog A I have copyright to, I took them and with the dog owners permission for the purpose of this thread.

I won`t state anything to anyone publicly or otherwise without the owners permission, and I don`t respond well to rudely toned demands, end of. I can look dogs up on the breed database as easily as you can, as can anyone else ya know.

Neither I nor the dogs owner are answerable to you or your demands ;-)

Her pedigree is not in question, if you read post one it will remind you of the purpose of this thread, it`s about opinions of perceptions of the breeds appearance and thoughts on the builds overall.

I am aware of this ;-)

Of those two, the BIS I would have told the owners to leave the ring, the dog looks dreadful, the other is much better by comparison and does`nt have a banana back at least.

Now, if we can get back to the politeness this thread had I`m sure everyone would appreciate it

I have not ben rude to you, it is you that always starts being rude to other people when you are prooved wrong, regardless of what it states on the site you took pics from and also altered the Urma one as it is back to front the pic with the person with yellow top and blue tracksuit bottoms is not Zamp it is Quenn, Lisa wore jeans that year, orange tshirt, it was Quenn handlers that wore blue track suit bottoms in 2005 at Ulm. So I have no need to apologise I was there you wasnt, on the walks and gaiting around the stadium Quenn was at 1 point infront of Zamp, even though later was placed at VA8 and Zamp at VA5. Also at the time of posting you didnt name the dog or link the site you took it from, as to use a Urma photo you need to purchase it.
Thats your opinion that you would have asked it to leave the ring it would have been vice versa with me as the other one does not meet the breed standard in any shape/form/translation.
It is also your opinion the dog looks uncomfortable, not the dogs, the handler are the judges other in Germany.
I base anything I state on evidence and facts not opinion or other peoples words.

Thanks for posting the link - I think these type look a bit like overgrown corgis :-( Sorry to anyone who is a fan of this type, but they just don't look right to me. Just to clarify, I am also not a fan of the roach back type either. I like a non-exaggerated, middle of the road type. Archer's dog is just my type

Dog A probably because the overall conformation is more pleasing to my eye...

dito now thats a dog I would want to own ;-)

Archer's beautiful dog is just my type too Kirsty, so I'm with Dog "C";-)

p.s. Is there a place we can check out pedigrees? i.e. I honestly don't know what my new girl is, all I know is she's working lines through and through and her pedigree has lots of german vons in there all over the place, so does this mean she's going to be the sloping back type (pic A), or like Archer's or like Pic A then? I must check out her pedigree somewhere and find out, and I've never bothered with stuff like this before! :? So confusing! All I know about working lines is that they're very driven, and very smart, my previous dog was working gsd too so I know what I'm in for here!;-)

wildmoor you still havnt answered my question....what is the need for the sloping back? surely it is possible to breed shorter backs from health tested stock without the slant? what does the slant achieve?
I didnt contradict myself- i never said health tests were mandantory in england i just said that responsible breeders carried them out and i did say that they were mandantory in germany so how is that contradicting myself?
Im not going to start the one about my bitch again- i couldnt give two hoots what someone who apparently knows everything about everything in the breed but fails to recognise one of the most well known gsds...

By the way even though these exagerated dogs have good hip scores it doesnt stop the fact that as they get old their back ends give way as they are unable to support them in their senior years- you can come at me with your facts and figures- but imo me seeing these dogs with my own eyes having to be pts because they no longer have use of the back ends(im not saying this is due to their hips, but the whole back end)

Glad to see that "Dog C" is getting a few votes

There is a GSD pedigree database here ..

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd

If you dig out her pedigree, you will be able to search the database with their names.

You are confusing *working lines* with *obedience lines* Helen. Zena (from what I remember) is bred from english obedience lines (much like my Flame). As you have seen Zena's mother and also seen her father's pic on the Foxfold website, you should have a good idea how she will end up looking :-D

Thanks for that Kirsty, most helpful, I'll take a little trip there then!;-)

I think you might be wrong there though Kirsty, coz when I asked the breeder the other day when she popped down, she emphatically told me all her dogs are working line through and through, and I thought there were only the two, i.e. the English and the Working, didn't know about obedience lines??! Oh dear, this is so confusing, I'm going to have to read up a tad!

Foxfold are most definitely english obedience lines.

I am sure if you have a search through Zena's pedigree and check out the database you will be able to decide for yourself.

Must say now I can see the pic I do love the look of archer's dog. I vote dog C too

Some of these posts are blowing my mind!!!!

To me a dog is a dog and I don't know anything about lines etc. But I personally don't like the sloping back. There are no wild 'dogs' that have a shape like that.

Apart from Hyenas maybe, but isn't that something to do with having massive, powerful jaws?

The whole human intervention thing makes me really uncomfortable, especially when it's done for 'showing' purposes. It doesn't benefit dogs, it's just a hobby to please humans.

JMO x

Pam - respect! Again I am not going to get into an argument with someone who wishes to pick apart words in order to try to prove a point (however incorrect that point may be :-o)

However, I am more than willing to believe Pam who does her research and proves it over and over again. Well done Pam, again you prove your love for our wonderful breed by walking the walk NOT by talking the talk

Feel free to apologise to Pam, Patch

You accused me of posting two different dogs as Dog B and now you accuse me of altering the pics, plus your tone is derogatory. I`d call that pretty rude. I am the one who has asked for this thread to be pleasant...

What on earth are you on about ?? Look at the link, the pics are exactly as posted, I have`nt altered a damned thing, how dare you accuse me of something dishonest like that !
If the original site has the wrong dog I would think the owner might have noticed by now, and the pics have been linked to correctly, please stop trying to divert from the actual topic, it just makes you sound a bit desperate to avoid the issues under discussion.

Accusations as above, those you do need to apologise for.

It does`nt matter if you were on the moon, it`s not relevant to the topic

The copyright on the photo is as originally posted, that is a copyright requirement, and sites which wish to prevent photos being lifted can restrict them, they did`nt do so and the link has been given, get over it

You have your opinion I have mine, I made my thoughts quite clear regarding both dogs compared to each other.

Oh, I did`nt realise the dog could speak ;-)

Does`nt anyone else have a right to an opinion then ?
The vote results speak for themselves regarding the topic at hand.

Pam has made false accusations claiming I have altered the photo`s, that is absolutely untrue, the evidence is there for all to see when looking at the link where the photos are, if you want to defend someone for making up lies shame on you.

I like him best too

you realy need to do your research, it is predominately English type that gets CDRM now known as DM in later life not WG lines, I have only heard of one that is 100% WG lines get DM and that was a dog from Denmark when he was 10.5 yrs and he had been on steroids since the age of 2.5yrs which could have been an influence on the DM. So i where are these WG lines that have to be pts in older age due to not being able suport their 'back end' facts and figures, research/evidence counts your words dont.