Mr & Mrs Wolf Tonight on 5 Shaun Ellis! General Chat

I was really shocked and disappointed by the programme. I've heard of Shaun Ellis before but didn't know anything about him. Reading this thread has confirmed my thoughts about the programme.

The man is either deluded, stupid or insane. I can't see that he's doing it for the money - he lives in a caravan! And although he reckons he 'saving the wolf' he is doing nothing to conserve the species at all.

I was shocked that the female mated with the second in command. I wonder how he explains that?

I've just emailed him via his website. Bet I don't get a reply

The following was written by Gale Motter a curator at Wolf Park in Indiana, U.S.A. She's referring to Shaun Ellis's first tv documentary - 'The Wolfman':

I work with wolves at an educational facility(I have wolf spit on me right now). Our speciality is in social behavior. We've been studying the dynamics of a multi-generational pack since 1972. All our wolves are hand raised, and we interact with them on a daily basis. It's not a new concept.
I'm all for wolf education (the more the merrier!) but it's frustrating seeing misleading information and just bad information making it to television.

Has anyone really questioned the whole "abandoned wolf puppy" senario? The "abandoned" pups were actually born to Pale Face and Elu, 2 of Shaun's other wolves. To socialize wolves to humans you HAVE to take them away from their mother before they are 18 days old and intensively hand raise them. There are benefits to the pups in the long run, including a less stressful life in captivity, greater ease in vet care, etc. Abandonment is rare in captive wolves- if the mother did abandon them, I'd like to know why (health, stress levels, or just a mother who didn't get it are some possibilities). That would be valuable information for other people who manage captive packs.

You can tell rank order by what a wolf eats??? I've never seen any pattern to who eats what. All of the wolves eat the different parts of a carcass. Shaun's scenario would result in an unbalanced diet for everybody in the pack.

There are gaps in Shaun's logic that you could drive a truck through.

As a professional who watches/interacts with wolves on a daily basis I'd like to say I've never growled at any of the wolves, never bitten any of the wolves, never had to eat deer liver to prove I was dominant to any of the wolves. I do wash my clothes, I do take showers and I do go home to sleep and it hasn't affected my relationship with any of the wolves I've known.

My advice to people who are interested in wolves is to read as much as possible by different people. Use your own eyes, ears and brain to evaluate the information you are given, don't take anything as the gospel without some critical thinking.

Gale Motter
Curator
Wolf Park
Battle Ground, IN 47920
www.wolfpark.org
gale@wolfpark.org

Have a look at the "cry wolf site" where Charlie brags about their new wolf x dog breeding programme and the new wild west theme park they are opening! As said in a previous thread he may choose to live in a caravan but he certainly isnt short of money with all the film work and having just bought a 60 acre farm park.

Thanks, interesting and sounds like she has EXTENSIVE expperience, Ill look at the link you posted now.

If you have a look at the Wolf Park site, take a look at Wolf Hybrids / Wolf Park's position on wolfdogs. It's very informative.

now I want to see it, what station was it on? can I get it on iplayer?

I think the man is a ******

he also need a bloody good hair cut/bath

bet hes rubbish in bed too howler

Adrian Wydeven, Certified Wildlife Biologist, and Wolf Biologist for the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources since 1990.



I am troubled by work done by Shaun and presenting it as research. He is a bit of showman and knows how to capture the interest of the media. I have not seen any scientific papers produced by him. It seems when you are living amongst a bunch of wolf pups and observing their behavior, one may learn some interesting behaviors, but from animals raised by people, hardly tells us much about wolf behavior in the wild . A lot of people have observed wolves in captivity and several have raised pups to adulthood, and reported on the pup growth and development. Shaun's work is not that different, and I am not sure living right with the wolves adds that much insight. Living this close probably alters the behavior of the wolves and reduces the objectivity of the observer. It also is difficult to keep careful notes or keep other records unless he has others keeping film of all his interactions. I don't think Shaun will contribute much to wolf research or conservation, and he may instill some incorrect concepts. Living too close to large wild predators can be dangerous, and is not totally respectful of these animals. Watching them from a distance and giving them space is more respectful. We don't need to share a meal with these predators to learn how to conserve them.

So how did SE do it then, if it's all questionable? I'm sure I couldn't just walk into a wolf behaviourist/conservationist role. How did he manage to get to the position he is in now?

Monty Sloan, Wolf Park, Battle Ground, IN 47920

I have been working with captive socialized wolves since 1984. Unlike Mr. Ellis, I have also networked with many wolf biologists from around the world, attended wolf conferences since 1987, presented lectures and posters on wolf behavior and have a good understanding of the scientific literature of wolves. I have also learned quite a lot directly from the wolves, my relationship is all based on trust and rewarding wolves to exhibit behavior that makes them easier to manage in a captive setting and very safe and very enjoyable to work around.

In 2005, I was contacted by Stone Castle Graphics, a small company in the UK which was working on a series of coffee table books on animals. They had completed The Spirit of the Horse and were working on their second book The Spirit of the Wolf. Initially they just wanted to use some of my photos, but in the end they decided to use my work exclusively. I was interested in who was writing the book, but they were not initially forthcoming. When I was finally told it was Shawn Ellis, the name meant nothing to me as he was not in the scientific wolf biology circles I was familiar with.

I offered to help with the text, but in the end I had no ability to change text – in fact I did not see a manuscript until two weeks before the book went to the publisher which was a shame because much of which was so obviously incorrect. I never worked with the publisher, and I never had any contact whatsoever with Mr. Ellis. Mind you they assured me the book would be mostly photos and lite on text, and it was. Also, they had a BBC Wildlife editor so I felt comfortable with the project. Also, since it was only a coffee table book, and over all these books just contain the same old generic, but generally not terribly inaccurate information, I was not terribly concerned. Was I ever wrong... When I contacted them about the inaccuracies, even the folks at Stone Castle Graphics had concerns and the Editor apparently tossed out a LOT. They assured me it would be OK because nobody ever reads these anyway…. What started as a great project for my photographic career, ended up as an embarrassment… I have never sold a single copy of the book, gave the all ones I received from the publisher to friends as gag gifts and the copy I have was given to me from a friend in The Netherlands. It is in Dutch so nobody here can read the text. Sigh.

Then there was the National Geographic Special. It was so bad and so full of the same misinformation -- it like a bad movie, so bad it’s funny. I must say I really felt bad for Doug Smith. He is a friend of mine and working for the Government, he had no choice but keep his mouth shut and be nice. He got a LOT of flack for that show. Doug and I were able to commiserate – me the Book he the TV show…

Now there is the Animal Planet special. With each step, things seem to be going from bad to worse… So much of how he handles the wolves and what he says about handling the wolves is so very incorrect. We can do so much more with our wolves, as can many of our colleagues at other facilities, than he can with his. Our entire approach is to establish good relationships with the wolves – not aggressive based relations, but relationships based on positive rewards and positive interactions. Size, strength, physical abilities, how you smell, what you eat (the wolves could care less if you were a vegan – what’s up with eating organ meat?) all are meaningless in comparison to a good working relationship with an animal.

What all this boils down to is he is a good showman, obviously does care a lot for wolves, but does sensational things with his wolves and has a nack of doing weird and completely unnecessary things. He also promotes himself as an ‘expert’ and the only one who can live with wolves. That makes for good TV ratings, but in reality there are hundreds of people out there who can and do far more with wolves than he ever has with captive wolves.

After watching the National Geographic special I wondered what would happen if he were to go in with our wolves (who safely meet hundreds every year), but I would never want to subject any of our wolves to somebody who acts so inappropriately, and so rudely, around them.

One of my coworkers here likes to say that he is trying to reinvent the wheel, and that it is a pity, since he has the time and the passion that he has not really hooked up with wolf researchers; they could have told him that wheels are most effective when they are circular rather than three or five-sided.

Monty Sloan

Wolf Photographer
www.wolfpark.org
www.wolfphotography.com
www.wolfpaper.pl

I found this statement very worrying.

Lois, Director WHITEWOLFSANCTUARY.ORG

Shaun Ellis has done a huge disservice to wolves. I don't know any wolf caretakers who are not disgusted and appalled by the lack of knowledge and horrible behavior this person exhibited. If he wanted to bond with wolves, why didn't he get an education first and learn from those who know how to properly bond with wolves. Ask Monty Sloan of Wolf Park about his opinion of Shaun Ellis.
We are also very disappointed in shows like 20/20 and others who did not investigate the credibility of this person. Our guess is that TV shows just want the shock value.



Joni Soffron Director
North American Wolf Foundation
DBA Wolf Hollow

I am very disappointed that reputable organizations such as National Geographic, Animal Planet and 20/20 are promoting this nonsense. Like others that you have printed I have been raising wolves in captivity for 20 years for our educational facility.


Richard Morley
Director
Wolves and Humans Foundation

I have been aware of Shaun Ellis and his questionable interactions with captive wolves for some years, and in 2002 tried to persuade the local authority of his home town of Combe Martin in Devon to put an end to his potentially very dangerous and damaging activities, without success. In my opinion (and this also applies to other facilities and organisations in the UK where staff, volunteers and sometimes the public are allowed to interact with captive wolves), the fact that no-one has been seriously injured is more down to luck than understanding of wolf behaviour. Such an incident would undoubtedly feed sensationalist media reporting and negatively affect public attitudes towards wolves. I have not seen the recent television documentaries about Ellis, and I have not met anyone in the conservation community who takes him or his 'research' seriously. What Ellis is doing exploits the perception that wolves are dangerous - would TV companies and the media be interested in him if he was living with a group of domestic dogs? He has also been quoted as saying, in relation to his plan to try and live with a wild wolf pack in Finland, that "the combination of wolves and bears is a big predatory danger". This can only help reinforce negative attitudes to large predators and contributes nothing to their conservation. Regarding his alleged deterring of a wolf pack from attacking livestock in Poland by playing recorded wolf howls; Dr. Sabina Nowak, a Polish biologist who has researched wolves for over 10 years and has specialised in the role of howling in wolf pack behaviour has stated that in her opinion wolves are more likely to be attracted to investigate unfamiliar howling in their territory, and that the subsequent lack of wolf attacks on livestock is likely to have been due to other factors.

I thought it was a joke myself and cant believe I wasted a hour watching it as pointed out previously he's not even with his G/F so its all a moo point.
Plus when did hand reared wolves become wild?
even kev thought it was crap n he has no interest in these things x

Yes a lack of knowledge concerning these wolf dogs could be very dangerous indeed.

Bet he's still clarty!!!

Can someone ask CR to tell SE to have a wash!! If he's got all this money surely he can afford for someone to chuck a bucket of water at him a couple of times a day!

They could even get the bucket holder to dress up as kermit..

Ohh I was asked today if I have Native American blood in me (if I do it belongs to someone else!!)
Wonder if I could get a job down there..Live in a teepee with my Arctic Wolves..I could tell fortunes with crystals and stuff..

Well I've just found this on 5's version of i-player so will have a look at some point.
All I've seen is her shocking mascara and SE suddenly gone all Native American Indian in his dress, what's that all about???

Bit off topic but I've always had a bit of a gripe with the whole wolf/NI thing about calling NI's NAI names when we know they've nothing to do with them. ..... and SE dressing like that just goes along with people's preconception that all wolves are from N America. I don't have NAI blood in me but my Charlie does.

Anyway, someone needs to do an exposee on him. It's very worrying how just anyone can call themselves a wolf expert..... and dangerous too.

Started reading his book but it was sooo bloody boring and self congratulatory, i didnt even get half way through, plus he looks positively neanderthol, he could be the missing link. Did read an excellent book last week called The Loop, written by the guy who wrote the Horse Whisperer, all to do with a Wolf pack and the Ranchers in Texas, very sad but I highly reccommend it, much better than SE's waffle.

For the last 11 years I've been researching wolves, wolf diet and wolf-human conflicts in Slovakia, which shares the same population of wolves as Poland, where Shaun has done some of his work.

At the end of last year I was in Poland to attend an expert seminar on the conservation and management of wolves and other carnivores in the Carpathian Mountains. I asked Polish wolf researchers if they knew about Shaun's work. These are professional people whose full-time work is studying wolves in the wild in Poland: their territorial behaviour, when and why they howl, how to protect livestock from predators. I was surprised to find that they had never heard of Shaun Ellis.

I described Shaun's work to them. In their opinion, playing recordings of wolf howls is likely to attract wolves, not repel them, as Shaun has claimed. The explanation they gave is that resident wolves would be anxious to defend their territory from intruders and so would tend to approach the source of any howling they heard coming from within their territory. The researchers I spoke to have personal experience of this from their own work in playing recorded howling.

Robin Rigg
www.slovakwildlife.org

It certainly is !! ;-)