Lurcher Discussions

What on earth are you on about?

How can most Lurcher breedings be accidental? Considering all Greyhounds in rescue are neutered, that cuts those out, how many do you know NOT neutered in pet homes, used for breeding? Show types are not Lurcher bred anyway they only use racers, so that leaves them, yes? Now who might want an ex racer? and not a pet? perhaps somebody that works Lurchers do you think? Then doesnt it stand to reason that these people may actually think about what they are mating to what, because their dogs are used for working?


I know you hate people working their dogs Patch, I cant stand agility either, but you are just trying to state things that are not true. To say that most are accidental is utter rhubarb!

Because entire dogs escape, or live in multidog households and are not kept seperate when they should be, and all the same reasons as any other accidental litter happens. Not every single owner of a sighthound is an example of dog ownership perfection, hard as you obviously find that to believe

Oh please get real. Many rescues, [ less reputable ones ] dont neuter all adults before rehoming and even the best ones which do neuter all adults still home pups too young to neuter first and some of those *do* end up involved in accidental matings, then there are the pounds which dont run a brush over a dog let alone have it neutered or anything else, then there are the ones buying from puppy farms, byb`s, newspaper or internet ads etc who them breed accidentally or deliberately themselves, and the ones whose cousin three times removed has a friend whose neighbour had a litter and gives them away `free to good homes` etc etc etc. This is the real world Dawn...

Plenty as it goes

Some deliberately, some accidentally...

I don`t think many of the pet homes these dogs are in give a thought to whether or not their dog is from show lines.

No it doesnt. See above

Predominantly anyone who loves Greys and understands whats involved in living with an ex-racer and want to give it a home rather than it be destroyed for not making the grade.

Funnily enough some people just like them regardless of whether the dogs could work or not, be they Greys, other sighthound, Lurchers or Longdogs, same as most people who have their prefered breeds / types / Bitza`s purely for the love of the dog itself.

It stands to reason that anyone breeding any dog for any purpose *should* think about what they are doing. Reason does not always come into it however when people let their dogs have accidental matings, or are ignorant of where puppies come from, or any of the other reasons why deliberate and accidental litters happen of every breed and type going.

Dawn, you really need to see the real world. Accidental litters of every type happen everywhere in the world every single day. I am not the one talking rhubarb, thats just you with blinkers on.
I say again, you do *not* know every single person in the world who s responsible for a litter of Lurchers being born, there are rather a lot more of them out there than just the ones in your little circle of aquaintainces.

You telling people that a Lurcher is not a Lurcher because it does`nt work or is built to heavy / stocky or whatever is just you giving misinformation based on your own bias for wanting dogs to kill things and your own bias on what you `think` defines a dog.

I suppose you would also say that the Border Terriers who come to agility with me are not really Border Terriers because they do that instead of ratting

Just accept it Dawn, a Lurcher is defined by its genetics, not your personal opinion based on whether it works or not, and certainly not just because you want to spar with me over it based on a disagreement elsewhere on a different topic altogether

Sorry Patch you are way off track, to listen to you every accidental mating is a Lurcher, and it simply is not!

and they just happen to be Greyhounds? come on Patch!

Did you not know that show bred Greyhounds are entirely different to racers? They are not used for Lurcher breeding because they cant run and turn anywhere near as well. ill find a linky for you if you like?

Good grief are you really so desperate to snipe at me that you have to twist things so innacurately ? People only need to refer to my posts to see that what you are infering is not what I have said at all.
Did I say anywhere that every accidental mating is a Lurcher ?
No I did not.
I said accidental Lurchers happen the same as accidental matings of every other breed and type.

You are the one banging on about only Greyhounds. Lurchers are the result of matings of *any* sighthound x anything else - that means a tad more breeds involved in the production of Lurchers than just Greys.

Much as you are desperately trying to belittle me Dawn, yes I am perfectly well aware that there are differences between Show Greys and racing Greys, sorry if that little bit of info is hardly a suprise to me

Aaaaah silly me, of course, no owners of pet Greys or other sighthounds which were bred from Show stock but were`nt up to the show ring ever have accidental matings do they, nor the ones from BYBs or puppy farms or any other source, nor any other sighthound of course [ as its not just Greys which make a Lurcher ], not one anywhere has ever run off and mated with the dog up the road, not one has *ever* been caught out accidentally, just could`nt happen eh Dawn ?

Do grow up Dawn, theres a good girl.
Here`s some info for you regarding what defines a Lurcher

http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/evidence/lurcherclubs1.htm

The Lurcher

2.1 The lurcher is not a ‘breed’ of dog, as defined by the kennel club, but a ‘type’ of dog. Sheardown explains that the lurcher is originally produced by cross breeding two different breeds; "The lurcher is an intentional cross between a long dog and a herding dog, or the offspring of parents so bred". Historically, the two breeds used were the greyhound and a herding dog, such as the border collie. This was because these were the breeds which were most readily available as breeding stock.

2.2 The origins of the modern lurcher may vary widely of cross matings between working breeds; collies, German shepherds, Australian heelers, bull terriers and Bedlington terriers; and a selection of sight hounds; greyhounds, whippets, salukis, deerhounds, and even the exotic borzoi or pharaoh hound have been advertised as the sire or dam in the ‘pups for sale’ columns in magazines such as The Countryman’s Weekly.

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http://www.greyhoundrescue.co.uk/FAQ%20What's%20Greyhound%20Rescue.htm

A 'working' definition of a lurcher is a dog with a visible component of greyhound or other sight hound parentage.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurcher

The Lurcher is not a dog breed, but rather a type of dog. It is a hardy crossbred sighthound that is generally a cross between a sighthound and a working breed, usually a pastoral dog or Terrier. Collie crosses have always been very popular. Lurchers can be crossed several times. There is no set type, so they can be as small as a Whippet or as large as a Deerhound; but most are chosen for a size similar to that of a Greyhound, and a distinct sighthound form is preferred.

The Lurcher was bred in Ireland and Great Britain by the Irish gypsies and travellers in the 17th century. They were used for poaching rabbits, hares and other small creatures. The name Lurcher is a derived name from the Romani language word lur, which means thief. The travellers considered the short-haired Lurcher the most prized. The Lurcher is rarely seen outside of Ireland or Great Britain, and is still common in its native land. The Collie crosses were often not large enough to do the work the Lurcher was intended for.

Irish Romany or Roma people were instrumental in developing the breed, and were traditionally sneered at any Lurcher that was not predominantly genetically Greyhound, since these "lesser" Lurchers were not as good at hunting and could not stand a full day's work of the hunt. The stringent training methods of the Gypsies are looked down upon in some Lurcher circles, since the pups began working at six months old. Only the top-producing pups were kept; the rest were sold at traditional bargain rates. Today some breeding is carried out in a more systematic manner, with Lurchers bred to Lurchers to perpetuate the "breed's" prowess at rabbit and hare coursing.

Generally, the aim of the cross is to produce a sighthound with more intelligence, a canny animal suitable for the original purpose of the lurcher, poaching. Developed in the Middle Ages in Great Britain and Ireland, the lurcher was created because only nobility were allowed to have purebred sighthounds like Irish Wolfhounds, Scottish Deerhounds, Greyhounds, and Whippets, whereas crosses, or curs, had no such perceived value. Similarly, nobility owned most land and commoners were not allowed to hunt game on crown land or other noble estates.


It was important that the lurcher did not resemble too closely a sighthound, as the penalties for owning a sighthound were high, particularly given that if you owned one then by default you were considered a poacher. The original lurchers therefore were generally heavier-coated dogs who could herd sheep as well as bring home a rabbit or hare for the pot.

The lurcher has as many varied uses as types can be crossbred, but generally they are used as hunting dogs that can chase and kill their prey. Most lurchers today are used for general pest control, typically rabbits, hares, and foxes. They have also been successfully used on deer. The only truly sporting use of the lurcher is in hare coursing, although most hare coursing dogs are Greyhounds. Lurchers move most effectively over open ground, although different crosses suit different terrains. Lure coursing and dog racing are also popular in areas with little available hunting, or for people who dislike hunting. The modern Lurcher is growing from its old image of disrepute to heights of popularity as an exceptional family dog, and many groups have been founded to rehome lurchers as family pets.

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** How many of the small number you know herd sheep as well Dawn ?
If they can`t/don`t, well, they can`t be `real` lurchers then can they, if they can`t do what they were originally bred for eh ?

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http://www.dogshome.org/rehome/choosing_a_pet/which_breed/lurcher.html

* Cross between a sighthound and any other breed so differs a lot in height and weight

A Lurcher is a cross-breed between a sighthound - a Greyhound, Borzois, Saluki, Whippet, Afghan Hound or Irish Wolfhound - and any other breed of dog. But by far the most common is the Greyhound-cross.

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You seem to be confusing the original dogs bred from what was most commonly available, with modern Lurchers for whom there is far more variety of parentage available, [ whether deliberate or accidental matings ].
You can`t just keep saying a dog is or is not a Lurcher because *you* want it to conform to your own bias or preference.

I notice you skipped over the Border Terrier comment where I said, " I suppose you would also say that the Border Terriers who come to agility with me are not really Border Terriers because they do that instead of ratting ".
Why did you not address that Dawn, the principle is surely the same in your view....?

I do find you quite entertaining Patch, thank you! ill read that when Im bored stiff.

Try reading the info Dawn, you might learn something

Also, please clarify whether or not in your `opinion` a Border Terrier that does agility as its prefered acitivity is not genetically a `real` Border Terrier because it does`nt do the original `job` it was bred for....
Yes or no Dawn ?

Now now be nice,

No dog does agility as its preffered activity, its the owners preference! With Terrier work (you mentioned Borders) its natural breed instinct, something which doesnt need to be taught, encouraged or otherwise.

You do keep on about this Patch, are you referring to the thread weks ago about the OES X? If so, my opinion on that dog stands. Im not sure what you are getting at?

Sorry Patch, just added this.
I cant find where in this thread I said a dog was not technically its "breed" if it didnt do its original job?

No comment.

I don`t expect you to say differently as you dont understand anything about agility or the dogs which do it.

I`ll make it clearer : In your view is a non-working Border Terrier still genetically a Border Terrier or not ?

Repetition supposedly helps people learn and retain information. I`m trying to help you understand the errors in your thinking regarding what constitutes a Lurcher.

I was referring to Border Terriers specifically, thats why I mentioned them, but as you brought the other thread up about the Lurcher of OES x Deerhound parentage, your opinion is just that, opinion, not genetic based *fact*.

I`m pretty sure you do.

Not specifically in this thread though you have made it clear thats what you think. In post 38 of this thread you do say :

" Many Lurcher types in rescue are bred by travellers, these are the non thought out, stolen, whatever types, these are the people that give no thought to their breedings, not the people that rely on their dogs for their livlihood and their work".

They are not Lurcher `type`, they are Lurcher full stop if bred from any sighthound to anything else, [ except to another sighthound in which case they are Longdogs such as the one Hayley mentioned ], regardless of who bred them or why they bred them.

On the thread you have brought up yourself you did say :

" Very lovely, but not what I would call a Lurcher. They are bred for speed, stamina and strike, I think Skye is way to heavy to be able to do the work required by a Lurcher, only my opinion.
Dawn. ",

which clearly indicates that in your `opinion` you do not seem to accept a dog being what it is by parentage but only by virtue of whether it can or actually does its traditionally bred for job, hence why I ask if you consider agility loving but otherwise non-working Border Terriers to be what they are genetically or not.

As far as the dog in that thread, no I dont, neither did its owner, which is why they asked!

A Border Terrier is just that Patch, a pedigree dog, so whatever they may or may not "do" of course its the same breed, it is a pure bred pedigree dog, Lurchers are mongrels, crossbreds, bred to do a job, the dog in the other thread WAS an accident, clearly NOT bred for a job and it shows, its untypical of a Lurcher, not a workable type, which of course is what I said As I said my opinion stands on that dog, if you want to discuss pedigree dogs fine, but everybody knows if it is a pedigree animal then its just what it says on the tin, isnt it?!

Probably because of misinformation and confusion caused by people who don`t understand what defines a Lurcher as a Lurcher. That dog by parentage is a Lurcher, pure and simple, your misinformed opinion does not change that basic fact.

Because of its parentage, its genetics, just as a Lurcher is a Lurcher for exactly the same reasons.

Bred hundreds of years ago to do a job, and today be they Borders, Lurchers, Collies, whatever, not doing the job they were *traditionally* bred for does not stop them being whatever their parentage today dictates them to be.

Irrelevent. An accidental but confirmed mating of two Labs producing a litter of unhealthy pups with poor conformation and clearly not `purpose bred for a job` does`nt stop them being Labs.
A accidental mating of two Border Collies resulting in pups with deafness, CEA or PRA, crap hips and only half a braincell would clearly not be considered as bred for a job but they are still Border Collies.
A Lurcher of deliberate or accidental breeding involving any sight hound in any percentage, regardless of body shape, size, colour, or anything else is still a Lurcher.

Irrelevent. From the information you seem not to have read or accepted :

"There is no set type, so they can be as small as a Whippet or as large as a Deerhound; but most are chosen for a size similar to that of a Greyhound, and a distinct sighthound form is preferred"

To clarify that for you, `preferred` is not the same as ` has to be` or `only allowed to be`.
By virtue alone of being crossbred, one litter of Lurchers can vary widely with distinctly different sizes and shapes from one pup to the next. They are still siblings with the same parents. If one turns out optimum shape plus instinct and ability to work, and the others dont, it doesnt mean one is a Lurcher and its siblings are not.

Yes its what you said and its still irrelevent, the parentage dictates what a dog is, not your opinion of a dog being the wrong build to chase and kill.

If you wish to continue to be wrong despite explanations of what you are misunderstanding, that can only be because you choose to be wrong. I think thats a strange attitude, but thats your choice of course.

Thats what you cant seem to grasp, that a Lurcher is as much a Lurcher by parentage as a Lab is a Lab.
There are many Pedigree dogs unable or unwilling to do the `jobs` they were traditionally bred for and which are nowhere near their breed standard.
There are many Lurchers - which are Lurchers by parentage not by ability - which can not or will not do the jobs they were traditionally bred for, and they don`t even have a breed standard to conform to, [ obviously ], just `preferences`, and `peferences` do not define what they are, their parentage does.

Not doing their `job` does not stop them being what their parentage dictates they genetically conform to, I cant fathom why you are unable, [ or unwilling....], to understand it.

Try this one : When I had a pet mouse, he got out of his tank. I found him the next morning sat at the top of the stairs happily grooming himself next to one of my cats. That cat, and none of my others, tried to catch or harm my mouse.
Does that mean, because they did not have the instinct / desire / ability /speed / or whatever else prevented them from doing the `traditional job` of killing rodents that they are not genetically `cats` ?

And what of my own Lurcher ?
Do you consider him to be a Lurcher or not.
If yes, why `in your opinion`.
If no, why not `in your opinion`.

Patch what is the point of answering your questions, i find you very difficult to debate with!

At the end of the day I Love my LURCHER who is now passed away so much and miss him very much! I have always thought they had to have greyhound blood in them to be a real Lurcher!

My Mungo Bean aged 11 onwards

Some folk call Whippet/Terrier crosses "Whirriers!" just to confuse!
Dawn.

i think borris has got whippet in him so i guess he is a whirrier then lol!

Dawn Im sorry but once again you are showing how little knowledge or understanding of lurchers, greyhounds etc.

A lurcher is a sighthound x - as in any sighthound a longdog is 2 sighthounds is really is that simple.

In those 18 years are you saying you've never seen a litter produce pups that were not exactly what the cross was supposed to produce? So on your reasoning only the pups that could/did work are lurchers the rest are not?

As for lurcher breeders, sorry but your idea of a good lurcher breeder is different to mine

Still as you say this could explain why the only lurchers in rescue are not from responsible breeders (also another fact that isnt true).

Hayley at the end of the day all that really matters is you loved him and shared your life with him. He looks like he was right character so keep your happy memories of him regardless of what was in his lines.

Very exciting thread going on here. A bit heated too !

Anyway, for anybody that's not seen him before (not many I suspect) here's Skye. He is a deerhound X old english sheepdog.

He can herd rabbits and bring a sheep home for the pot! LOL

Ok, the failure rate in working Lurchers isnt that low, because the parents of working Lurchers are usually tried and tested first, it hugely inceases the chance of a dog being able to work well, much like two show dogs. (dont snap back with 2 pets can produce a champ either, we all know that!)

Longdogs, lurchers whatever, MY OPINION stands! and that was the opinion on Skye (ears shut again Skye ) you can go on as much as you wish, i really dont give a flying cod fish, but if Skye was in rescue, there isnt a chance on this earth the people there (without being told) would say "Oh its a Lurcher" regardless of his parentage or otherwise. Are we clear?

:smt044 :smt044 :smt044 You get "Tumblers" too!!

Dawn of course your opinion stands, as your opinion, just as everyone else’s opinion stand as theirs. I don’t think anyone has said that you are not entitled to your opinion and Im sorry if I gave that impression.

I was merely trying to point out that most people involved with lurchers, either in rescue, breeding or working do not share your opinion, now you may not care what others think and again that certainly your right to do so.

Its ok Spot, no offence taken we all have our own thoughts on how we see things, I just dont see "Skye" as a Lurcher in that sense. I also can only comment on the people I know and have worked along side for years and years, well thought out breedings of proven parents, and I know they are responsible dog owners who have their dogs best interests at heart.

Speaking to local rescues, they tell me of "travellers" dogs etc.. I know these form a huge part of rescue Lurchers, I often wonder if some of these are not stolen etc.. and never find their way their way home for whatever reason.

I fully understand the rescue situation with dogs, i did it myself for 7yrs, you would be amazed at how many "Labradors" I took in that were nothing to do with Labs at all! ;-)
Dawn.