GSP - Is there a law that allows gun dogs to be docked? Discussions

You are thinking of driven shoots and possibly only considering game birds, what about rough shooting? There are people who ask permission from farmers (who are only too glad to get rid of rabbits/hares/pigeons) if they can shoot on their land. You would possibly require a hunting gundog to help you with this and a very many people do this to put food on the table. I know of several people who have been destitute in the past and have resorted to poaching, even sheep wrangling, because times were so hard and they had a family to feed. It's wrong but it doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

I have both border collies and a HPR with a docked tail, all 3 of my dogs hunt game. I'll explain the difference in their tails when they are hunting. The collies when on a scent hold their tails high, pointing skyward, and they wag the tip of the tail very slowly. My HPR on the other hand wags his tail erratically, the stronger the scent, the faster he wags it until he comes on point and then it becomes rigid.
This is a key point in understanding why some gundogs are docked.

I understand that docking is an emotive issue and there are some people against it but I tend to find that the majority of people who say it's barbaric do not understand the different roles different breeds have or the way the tail behaves.

Thank you, Leanne. Your explaination does make things clearer.

I'm, sorry if anyone feels I have hijacked another thread, but I did think this was a discussion on docking, which I really don't know much about and as I am hoping to get a gundog within the next 12 months, I thought that perhaps this was a good place to find out.

I never meant it to decend into personal critisism, so I shall go now.

I was enjoying the discussion!

What are you planning to get, a Brittany perchance?

I think the subject of docking is very complicated, especially if you are a working breeder of spaniels or HPRs.

When planning a litter, we viewed YouTube videos of puppies being docked - of which there are many, as it is perfectly legal for pups to be docked by breeders themselves in the US, for example. Even having seen pups being docked before, it is valuable to watch various breeds and to see many more than you could if only watching 'real' dockings.

Viewing these videos, it seemed obvious to us that the puppies were in pain and distress throughout the procedure. We don't believe the argument that their nerve-endings are not sufficiently developed at that age, because the pain is clear for all to see from the videos.

However, we have also seen the tail-damage which can result from a busy spaniel hitting its tail against things when working. This distress can be ongoing for months or even years before a vet docks under GA.

Finally, as a working breeder, you want to get as many pups as possible into working homes. That is the whole point of your breeding - to see the next generation able to carry out the job they were bred for. And the majority of working homes want docked dogs only. So you are left with the choice of not docking and seeing your litter go to mostly pet homes when bred from strong working stock, or to put the pups through the docking to secure the homes you want.

Personally, if it were entirely up to our preference, we would not dock. But to see pups in the best competition and working homes, we really don't have much choice.

Excellent post RunningRabbit!

I agree entirely, the idea that docking isn't painful is utter nonsense, but it has to be weighed up with the pain the animal would suffer if left undocked, there has to be actual expert opinions on this, in terms of looking at undocked working dogs working, not pets.....

Our spaniel breeder would only sell to working homes, and we had to supply a shotgun certificate - perhaps this is similar to the reasons you have expressed.

Thank you, Runningrabbit for your post. This discussion has certainly gave me food for thought.

Is there any reason vets don't give local anaesthetic prior to docking pups.

BTW the BVA have clearly stated that pups do feel pain, and all the current research agrees with this.

Too dangerous, they are, after all, only 3 days old.

I do not doubt they feel pain, I would hate anyone to think my baby did not feel pain at 3 days old, but it is one pain and it is final.

the same cannot be said once a dog has injured a full tail unfortunately.

We are lucky now, there is far more choice for the consumer; in fact there are more undocked dogs than docked now.

after reading posts on gundogs i was suprised to see the cresties come up but yes it is true, asbo wears suncream when its hot, he likes to sunbathe.. i could leave him and see if he did/didnt burn... but why would i do that, sometimes prevention is the better option ;-)

Why do you say this? They use local and regional anaesthetic on neonates, so why not puppies?

I beg to differ ;-) In the mountainous and upland areas of the UK it would be impossible to work as a shepherd without a team of good working collies.

Working sheepdogs tails are held low under their body when working and don't wag furiously when working through undergrowth like gundogs.

I live on a hill farm on a shooting estate and so have experience of both working sheepdogs and working gundogs. The gamekeepers are employed to preserve and nurture the grouse population, rear pheasants and partridge and to keep predator numbers down, amongst other things. They require working gundogs as part and parcel of their work. I fail to see how these are not proper working dogs, just as working sheepdogs are? :?

Smokeybear was not talking about the docking of General Purpose police dogs, such as GSDs.

Many police forces still partially rely on donations from the public, especially for their various search dog vacancies, and so will no doubt have both docked and undocked ESS and CSs depending on where they sourced their dogs.

That was my point, exactly, Moobli. Smokeybear has yet to provide any evidence that police forces routinely dock their search dogs. Her calim that they need to have docked tails because they often search in confined spaces is, quite frankly, laughable.

alot of sniffer dogs tails are docked (springers cockers etc) you only have to watch all the police programs on tv for that ;-) im sticking up for SB on this one.

Just out of interest brittany, how do you feel about bobtail Brittany's? Would you only consider a full tailed one?

I think you will find that these are dogs which the service has aquired and not ones that are in their own breeding programmes (if they have any. Not all services breed their own dogs, some rely entierly on dogs which have been "handed in"; usually from a pet home where they were too exuberant for their owners.)

I have no preference for a short or full tailed brittany. Length of tail doesn't appear on my list of perferences. However, I won't be working him in the field (is that the right expression? I'm totally new to gundogs!). I would consider working tests (that's a simulated days shooting, right?) and plan to continue with agility.

After this conversation, I would have to concede that if I was aquireing him to participate in actual shoots, I would have to think very carefully, and continue to research about wheather I'd have one with a full tail. I can now see that there are risks attached.

ahh but on one program the pup had been with its handler from 8 weeks old, was bred at the centre and had no tail just saying that there are dogs that are bred and have their tails docked...

As you say you are new to the world of gundogs, the police buy in puppies (docked) from breeders and breed and dock their own, depending on the force.

(Except in Scotland of course where docking is banned totally, unlike in Wales and England).

Each country varies slightly as, for example, Sprockers can be docked in England but not in Wales.

Just curious because of this post. If you want to do agility with a Brittany I was just wondering if a natural bobtail would be out of the question.

But generally though, I ponder if those against docking because it affects canine communication and balance have the same abhorrence for bobtails.

To be honest, I never really thought about that, Leanne. I think, then, that all in all, I'd prefer one with a full tail.

That's also a very good point! I must ask some of my anti-docking friends.

Thay seen to have been relativly sucessful in breeding bob tailed brittanys (as far as I know, it's about 50% who are born this way). I didn't know there were other breeds with naturally bobbed tails I wonder why there has been no effort to breed spaniels and pointers with bobbed tails? Maybe there has!