German Shepherds - suitable for agility? Agility

so as we are talking abou the standard. Here are pics of founder dogs of GSD breeds - this is what slightly sloping topline and long croup mean:


Horand Von Grafrath
http://bergtierpark.neujahr.li/Hektor2.gif
http://www.sasfirenze.com/sitoagility/immagini/Horand disegno.jpg

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...=horand+von+grafrath&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&sa=G

Now, do they look like show-line shepherds to you? to me they don't!Afterall Max always said that in GSD he wanted primarily a working breed!

paw paw

thanks for pics of the old gsds such handsome dogs, not like them we have now

They look a little stockier to me

These do not look like any workline shepherd in any country today, back then the male dogs weight average was 26kg thats like the continental bitches, of both workline and showline.

As already stated most pet people are used to pet lines which are more likely to be the Hill Billys of the dog race
The originaly post the person wanted a dog which could work, continental showline and workline can and do work, you only have to look at Karl Fullers Kirschental lines such as this dog
Sherry vom Kirschental
SZ 2144001, P-C 7467, Wurftag: 26.04.2004, SchH2,SchH3, HGH
a-Stempel: Hüfte und Ellbogen: normal, Zuchtwert: 76, DNA
ZB:V, Köklasse 1
V1 HZS 2006 HGH-GHKL
V1 HZS 2007 HGH-GHKL
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/474131.html
all Karls dogs are bred with the ability of the original work the breed was meant to do and all work sheep on his farm, and yes they have showline blood.
Manpol bloodlines have the Boombos kennel lines in them and so do WestMids, again proving these dogs do real work, my own showline are utilised as HPR dogs. How many of your petlines can be so versatile and not run a mile or hide at the sound of a gun.

the main think was they could work!
And don't tell me show-lines can, I have seen some at work, they were running away from the marker. Those who had a fit temperament had bad legs. I saw some of them couldn't even jump the obsticles nicely...
In Slo all GSDs have to be trained in obedience and protection work in order to get the right to breed, but I sometimes wonder, when I see some of the dogs in show ring, cowarding or growling...how the h... did they do ISP1, ISP2 ? And when I see them run - no, they are not just standing like that, they really can't run nicely. See the standard? Does it say anywhere how much they should weigh?NO, it doesn't - it isn't mentioned anywhere in the original standard. And just how did you find out that those dogs weighted 26 kg (I am really just curious, not attacking you)?
As far as I know, only the desired hight is given, not weight in standard.

also the link you show...all the dogs there have roach backs where it is written in standard that the back should be straight!

I know from the first breed survey conducted it also mentions weights, not sure what ISP is but the German/Dutch etc. showline do compete to IPO3 level.
Maybe the dogs in your country are different I am just comparing what I have seen shown and worked in Germany and some other European countries to the UK, by Uk I am refering to dogs from kennels that have European Breeding purely and those that have the old English breeding.

They are all VA rated dogs under SV rules.

I never said those dogs were badly bred - they just do not look like they should according to the standard. It seems breeders tend to breed more for fashion...
sorry, the standard hasn't changed drastically while the dog certainly have...
Ok - so we have different opinions Don't want us to fight over it - you like show dogs, I prefer working line dogs (the one showed in the photo I posted - leomegy - he is a working line, not a pet, we don't have pet purebreed GSDs here).
Lets agree to disagree

sorry, just one more and than I have to go :

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/04_The_Back/The_Back.html

roach back and correct...you see, this dog is standing like you said, but in stance its back really is straight. Roach back will never be straight .- not in motion and not in standing.

The only worklines that I like in the UK are from this kennel
http://mayanser.com/content/view/6/13/
But these would be too high a drive for the person that posted on here looking for one. The type she is after do not do the work your are pertaining to and couldnt. You would need to understand the splits in the UK, some of the old lines can weigh upto 56KG, a dog that size cannot be agile, maybe you should do a seperate post and show us all what the GSD is like in your country and the differences there, would be interesting to see the pics of them.

56 kg?
thats a shiloh or a king shepherd not gsd.
they weight 30 -40 kg (males) and 23 - 32kg (females). Males ussually 35, females 26-27kg)

We dont have Shiloh or King Shepherds just English and Continental lines, Continental lines are Male 35-40kg and Females 22-32kg. English Males are 45-56kg huge ;-) in weight, large boned etc, last one I had English showline was 28in withers 54kg, that was 15yrs ago

ok....
Well I was suggesting to get a working line shepherd because she said that she doesn't only wanna do agility but protection work too...So I think working line would be perfect for her...

And there are major diferencies between showlines too...not just in backs and hind legs but also in head shape. And also some are very thin and not muscular at all and they still get good grades and can breed. But the worst is if dogs with faulty temperaments are given the right to breed....
I must tho say that what I have noticed is that some working GSD lines tend to breed to agresive dogs, that are hard to handle for average owner. Such dogs do great in military and police but are really not suitable for pets. But that are just some lines. But as I have said we have a really good breeder here whoo breeds working line GSDs that are able to be great, obedient pets and stil have enormous drive and courage in fighting the marker. that is what I expect from a workline GSD - a versatile dog that you can trust and know you can take with you everywhere.
Sorry, but the link doesn't open...(where you said that is the only work line in uk you like)...
Will open a new thread than Tomorow

Sorry it worked for me try this
http://mayanser.com/content/view/8/15/

In the UK you can put any dog with any bitch if they are registered then the pups can be, there are no breed wardens here unfortunately. there are huge differences in head type in the pet line they tend to have snipey long muzzles very much like a rough collie type head.
I like my males to look like a male and vice versa for females.
The German Showlines in the UK do compete in Schutzhund they need it to get their breed survey, although most travel to Germany to get their titles as it is not a UK KC recognized sport, there are also german/ddr/czech worline in the UK that compete as well, but I do not know of any that dont have continental bloodlines behind them competing in SchH in the UK.

Look forward to your thread tommorrow, hope you have pics.

my hi line dog

my mix continental work/show line

If I can put in my opinion and before anyone comments, no I am not an expert in the breed.

However, this to me is a dog with a straight back and long sloping croup as asked for in the standard:
http://www.leomegy.com/Portals/0/Photo-Video/Max Leomegy/slides/DSC06930.html

These dogs however, have a sloping back, certainly not straight and definately roached:



JMO of course but can you see the difference?

First you would need to see in the flesh, secondly they all have high honours off SV judges who are the caretakers of the breed.

Beside certainly not like english either show or work either of them. Have you been to any all breed shows whether here or Europe, no doubt in your breed there are differences between workline and showline as there are in most, except the GSD which as more splits, where the UK Differ from Europe, again differ from US etc.
The English Showline is Simialiar to AKC showline, but in England you also get Showline bred to SV standards and all dogs are judged under SV rules the pics you have put up are from the German seiger and British Seiger under SV rules, by German judges, Next you are out and about have a look at some of the realy poor byb specimines in your area, no doubt you will see them as most towns have them.

The one on your link - now that is a nice looking dog, very nice back line in the pic, and probably has a nice strong comfortable and natural gait out of the standing show posture, that`s what I like to see

pmsl at this thread, my dog is the prime example of an english breed..............will post a pic of him soon with his friend a german lined dog....................my dog is fat and has a big **** and has lots wrong with him......................so lol, there is a big difference between german bred and english breed breeders..........but I will say nothing about the english linage breeders