Dog's Today September - Utonagan and Wolfdogs Discussions

I know very little about the various Wolfdogs (this thread has been educational, thank you).

I think the problem lies with the nomenclature. The very name 'wolfdog' will have the same fear and/or fascination as does Pit Bull and like the unfortunate Pit Bull it will be labelled as 'bad' just because of its name. And, again, like the unfortunate Pit Bull, will be sought after by those who wish to pose and posture and be thought tough because they have a 'hard' dog (or at least a dog with a 'hard' breed name). And, again, like the unfortunate Pit Bull, what happens when these dimwit owners find they have a friendly, even shy, dog on the end of the lead? Will they tease, taunt and beat it to make it aggressive? Will they encourage it to pit itself against its own kind? Will they treat it so badly that it learns to hate people just to satisfy their own pathetic egos?

Too many dogs, Pits, Staffs, Akitas, etc. etc. suffer this treatment. If I were a wolfdog owner/breeder I would want to keep my breed in the hands of those that know it, not risk the yokels getting hold of it. Maybe it is to the advantage of the Wolfdogs that they are not accepted in the UK?

First of all, thanks Dharkwolf for a really informative post.
Oh, and welcome to Dogsey of course!
Shadowboxers post has summed it all up again for me I'm afraid.
I do not understand why you would want to have your dog introduced here, as wonderful as they are, when the dog will fall into the hands of the wrong people. If I knew my breed was going to be mistreated I would be doing everything I could to avoid the place that could happen in. Sadly there are people here who use dogs as status symbols. They WOULD mistreat these dogs to make them aggressive,(I am NOT saying they are more prone to aggression but mistreat any dog and itr will ultimate retaliate out of fear) the press would report it (and have a field day) and BANG you have a breed with a bad name, as so many breeds over here have (very sadly).
I just don't think it would be a good thing to introduce these dogs, not because of their temprament, but because of what will happen to them. Sorry.:-(

Hmm. These lovely Czechoslovakian wolfdogs are very healthy beasts, usually. The breed as such is very weather resistant, they normally can spend all year round outside in the kennel. In winter, in Czech republic we can have -25C and the wolfdogs are all fine. Of course, they are provided with dry and comfy wooden kennel, but some of them tend to sleep more on the roof of it, than inside ;-)
They do not mind rain, they love snow. They do not like the summer heats, but well, who does.. I don´t!

On the other side, CSW can be kept in appartement, as any other dog. They adapt very quickly, and they usually find sofa very comfortable, as well they are cheered by presence of fridge (which they can learn to open).;-)

In the breed is controlled hip dysplasia, something that came inevitably with German shepherds (wolves are dysplasia free). It is highly recommended (in fact, CR and Slovakia have very strict rules about this) to x-ray all CSWs that potentially would breed and dog with worse result than 2/2 (C/C) should not breed (in CR and Slovakia results D, E and worse mean automatically no breeding).




Now, tell me something about Utonagans.. ;-)

Hello Mirkawolf
I did not make my initial posts as clear as I should have done, I understand why people are touchy about the wolf content and aggression questions, but they are not my problems with introducing the breed (although I do have ethical issues with x breeding wolves still.)
Sadly, the English public will make up their mind about your dogs long before they are shown at Crufts.:-( On top of that, the dog owners I am concerned about, will probably not watch or be interested in the coverage of Crufts, or even aware of it in some cases.:?
I see on a pretty much daily basis, what happens to some breeds of dogs over here and pretty much everyone is powerless to stop it. I would NOT want that to happen to your dogs and it would. Why inflict that on them?

Sad thing is, that it already IS happening to them. And they don´t even have to go to UK for that. CSW already became welcome subject of money making for some puppy producers, mainly in Western Europe.
So far, nobody is trying to make them aggressive, there is opposite problem. People get them because they like the wolf-like appearance, but know nothing about raising them properly. Which usually ends up with the dogs being shy or timid, which then the owners claim to be normal, because they think that´s how wolves are! :twisted:

Hi!
I think that would be a problem here too, but people would also mistreat them in an attempt to make them aggressive.
An example of what could happen.
A group of teenage lads were seen recently with a staffordshire bull terrier pup (about 9 months old) they had a cone from the road and were poking it and winding it up, making noises, with the dog tied up, on lead, trying to provoke a reaction from it and make it respond aggressively. That's the sort of thing I am worried about happening to these beautiful dogs of yours.:-( (And worse).

Hello Dharkwolf and welcome to Dogsey. Thank you for your contribution on this...and also the other new members

Just a couple of points I would like to raise from your post -

Yes I agree with the first sentence. It has now been confirmed that dogs, and as far as is known, all breeds, descended from the wolf but there is difference of opinion on how the classification should be and the usual is to put the dog Canis familiaris as a subspecies of the wolf Canis lupus.

Researchers have now been able to distinguish genetically between the wolf and dog, based on changes in the mitochondrial DNA, which occur at a more or less predicted rate over time. It has taken upwards of 15 thousand years to achieve the mtDNA changes found in the modern dog breeds and it would be expected that none of these changes would have occurred in a population that has been in domestication for less than a century. This would place the wolfdogs in a DNA cluster with the wolves and separate from all other known dog breeds, so therefore should be known by the founder species scientific name of Canis lupus if they are truly descended soley from wolves.

I don't know if either of the wolfdog breeds have been included in any DNA studies (they're not included in Ostrander's) but it would interesting to see if this was the case and could indicate if any interbreeding has occurred.

Unfortunately the German Shepherd Dog was at one time referred to as a Wolfdog in the UK and there have been many references to it being of either recent wolf descent or of having recent wolf content, but no evidence for this has ever been put forward and has always been refuted by the GSD community. Recent DNA studies have now confirmed that the GSD is no closer to the wolf genetically than most other breeds and is grouped in a cluster with some of the Mastiff type breeds ie Bernese Mountain Dog, Newfoundland, Rotweiller (Ostrander et al 2004).

Parker HG, Kim LV, Sutter NB, Carlson S, Lorentzen TD, Malek TB, Johnson GS, DeFrance HB, Ostrander EA, Kruglyak L. 2004. Genetic structure of the purebred dog. Science 304:1160-1164.

Ok, I realise from this that I've misunderstood Dharkwolf's comments about wolfdogs being 100% wolf. The first crosses seemingly were wolf x GSD.

I fail to see what difference holding a pedigree and registration certificate makes to the actual dog. Perhaps you have more generations of known breeding behind your dogs and the wolf content more stabilised, but essentially the are the same.

Thanks to everyone for the fantastic reception! It truly is encouraging to find such a supportive community.

I will clarify a few things now about Czechoslovakian wolfdogs in the UK.

Actually, like I mentioned previously, Czechoslovakian wolfdogs (normally abbreviated as CSV from the original Czech name or CSW) have already been recognized by the UK Kennel club, and they have already participated in Crufts – unfortunately that recognition was revoked, though I am still not entirely sure why (if someone knows why, I’d be interested in the information)

Why is it a problem? Well, for me it’s a bit of a personal problem, as I have been forced to turn down some interesting job offers in the UK because of that particular ban, but beyond my little woes it is a problem for the breed as far as regulators are concerned. If a breed is banned in some country (any country) then other countries are more likely to wonder why that is so, and consider implementing measures to restrict the breed in some way or another. Note however that Czechoslovakian wolfdogs are in a bit of a legal nether zone in the UK. Nothing specifically prohibits them, yet some people interpret that they fall under the DWA act and others do not – it’s a matter of criteria and interpretation, and honestly things are not really very clear. Some will say that an animal which contains a certain percentage of wolf blood is to be restricted end of tale – but of course all dogs contain wolf blood. Would an IPO 3 trained dog with an excellent record sheet as a rescue dog be considered as anything other than a dog? Well, some people seem to think so.

The question has been raised about the wolfdog falling into hands of unscrupulous people who will try to rile them up to fight or provoke them in some ways. There is a lot to be said for having a stubborn intelligent dog though – the CSW has lots of defects and can be problematic, one of the biggest problems if you try to train one is getting them to train defence – they simply do no like to bite. Many (not all) of them simply refuse. The world is not a pretty place at times, and it is not only in the UK that people rile up dogs and provoke them time and again – for whatever the reason. Some breeds have been misused all over the world not just in the UK. So if this was to be a problem with the CSW – we would already be seeing it in France, Germany, Poland etc – but the fact is we don’t. Why? Probably because the character of the CSW is such that he doesn’t lend himself to the game. If a CSW is mistreated, he escapes. (CSWs can be magnificent escape artists if given a good reason)

I think the main issue with wolfdogs in the UK remains one of semantics, and lack of information coming in from the US where there is a lot of confusion between wolfdogs and wolf hybrids. That is not to say the issue is negligible or trivial, it is not. I would only wish you could meet some of our dogs so that you could see for yourselves what I’m actually talking about.

Now to respond to another interesting comment:

It’s an interesting point you raise Pod.

There are a number of facts to point out here. First – the GSD is one of the dog breeds which has been found to have a mitochondrial haplotype exactly matching that of the Carpathian wolf (C. Vila et al, 1997) the classification may be changed around, as you seem to know about genetics you should be aware that classification is based on criteria which are partly inferred, and partly postulated. Thus depending on your criteria for classification, the GSD ends up being far from wolves, or remarkably close.

However – though it is typical to study mitochondrial haplotypes in wild populations to study genetic drift and define the relationships between species, the approach is not valid for domestic animals, as the selection methods in domestication are arbitrarily set by human breeders, rather than selected for in nature. Simply because mitochondrial DNA, unlike chromosomal DNA, is strictly inherited from the mother. So if I were to cross a male wolf and a female dog, the mitochondrial haplotype of the F1 litter would tell me those animals would have no wolf ancestors – even though their father was actually a wolf! So in a breeding program where I used say four male wolfs, you simply would never see any of them.

Secondly – while part of the GSD community refutes the fact the GSD ever had anything to do with the wolf, there are parts of the community which do not – for instance in some parts of Europe (ie Czech Republic) the German Shepherd is still referred to as simply “the wolfdog” however I will stay away from that particular debate at this time, and go back to talking about my wolfdogs, which I know the most about.

Caries Vila, Peter Savolainen, Jesus E. Maldonado, Isabel R. Amorim, John E. Rice, Rodney L. Honeycutt, Keith A. Crandall, Joakim Lundeberg, Robert K. Wayne, 1997, Multiple and Ancient Origins of the Domestic Dog, Science 276: 1687-1689.

am absolutely fascinated by all this. I used to be on wolfdog.org but my computer crashed and I no longer have the password so am unable to get in anymore. I used to love seeing the dogs on there. I seem to remember that there was someone over here with CW's and his female was killed in a road accident, it was around the time that it was decided that CW's were NOT welcome over here, as opposed to them being welcome at Crufts. Very confusing even to me.
Our dogs too get a lot of bad press just because of what they look like and their behavioural instincts. They are not easy dogs to have and train by any means, I have found them most challenging but I enjoy being with them and their warped sense of humour.
My 2 are the friendliest girls in the world as those who have met them can tell you, but when I walk down the road with them as I did yesterday on a busy shopping day people actually give them a wide berth and look at me as though I am an alien!!! Here are piccies of my two, they were 7 months old then, they are now 9 months old, have just been weighed and are 32 kilos each. How does that compare to your dogs?

Alot of this is all over my head, but am totally fascinated by everyones comments and learning so much more about these dogs.
I hope you all continue to keep using this site, your dogs are beautiful.

I think the legal standpoint in the UK is based on wild blood. Hence people need a wild animals licence to keep certain animals.

Here is a quote from a document from DEFRA that you might find interesting:

You can download the full document from here:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/gwd/wolfdogs/wolfdogs.pdf

The kennel club here were pleased to allow entry to the first Czechoslovakian wolfdogs a few years back, they welcomed them and allowed them to be shown at crufts then they liasoned with DEFRA who's rule it is, if a dog has more than just 1% wolf content it is to be deemed a wild animal thus requiring a DWA licence and to be kept as a wild animal with many restrictions.

Thank you to all the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and Saarloos Wolfdog owners coming to talk about your dogs, it is turning out to be a very educational thread and you all have way better english than I do! I for one really appreciate your effort into the thread...

Thank you for the nice photos. The dogs look very different from each other. Is that normal for the breed? Sorry but here we know nothing about Utonagans at all. Just that they exist.

We have two females Czechoslovakian wolfdogs. The older one, Cira, will be 8 years, at the bonitation she had 66,5cm in shoulders and weighed around 30 kg. We measured her two weeks ago, she was 68 cm in shoulders and currently she has 33 kg.

The younger female - Ali, will be two years in November, she was measured two weeks ago with 66 cm in shoulders and she weighs roughly 33,5 kg.

Here they are:


Funny enough, the standard says females CSW should be minimally 60cm in shoulders and 20 kg, males 65 cm and 25 kg. To be honest, animals looking like that are very skinny and there is not too many of them. Most of males I know are from 35 - 45 kg and size 66 - 72 cm in shoulders.

For some idea, here go pictures again:

typical male:



typical female:

To Dharkwolf and all the other wolfdog owners - thank you for taking the time to write such informative posts. It is really wonderful to hear about your dogs.

stunning dogs, especially the male.
My 2 are litter sisters, one is a rough haired and the other is short haired, they are both double coated.
I was originally just having the rough coated one as my old girl was a rough coated one, however she had another stroke and unfortunately died just before I brought my pup home, so when I went to pick her up, I came home with 2!!!!
Having already had one of the original dogs bred by Eddie Harrison I was already aware of how different they are to other dogs both in their mannerisms and training needs. However, having not had a puppy for 12 years it was an enormous culture shock, which I have now overcome and enjoying my time with my girls. Still miss Tawney of course, she was with me a long time and I will never forget her and the lessons she taught me.
Your dogs look very similar to the Northern Inuit dogs we have here, Myscheivous and Luz are both the proud owners of some beautiful dogs.

I was going to say just that - many of the NIs I've seen resemble these lovely wolfdogs .

I'm only an owner so not a Utonagan expert but many of their traits sound similar: intelligence, stubborness, not biting/guard dogs, trainable but independent ...

Observing my own dog he is highly intelligent but incredibly stubborn. He loves people and does not guard. Nor does he bark at knocks at the door or bite. He doesn't much like other male dogs. He climbs the walls if he doesn't get his exercise and loves to run (the husky in him?). He is highly prey driven and will kill and eat animals such as rabbits etc. Utonagan seem adept at opening fridges and food drawers and can be amazing escape artists. My lad loves to dig holes and chew. I haven't found anything yet that he is afraid of - he was initially afraid of fireworks as a pup (a bad experience - my fault in trying to socialise him with them, idiot that I am ) but he is terribly curious and now barks to be let out to get the fireworks. He is unbelievably nosy, curious, into everything and hates to be left alone. He is part of the family and is not the sort of dog to have if you intend to work all day and leave him home alone. He is wonderful with children, if a little boisterous and rough but that is exuberance, rather than anything unwanted. He is very affectionate and astute and senses if you're down but yet he can be quite independent when out on walks. He is happy to be handled while eating, even if it is a bone - although this might be due to training. He has excellent recall if there is nothing about that he considers more interesting and unfortunately dominating other dogs - to him - is more interesting than even the tastiest treats. He has a zest for life that leaves me breathless. He is a sensitive soul and very forgiving of my frequent stupidity in not understanding him too well. He bounces back, no matter what is thrown at him.

Healthwise HD and cataracts have been seen in Utonagan, as well as monorchidism (sp?). Epilepsy is rare but unfortunately my lad has been diagnosed with it. I believe breeding programmes are in place to try to phase these out.

A natural, raw diet seems to suit these dogs.

There is quite a variation amongst the Utonagan with respect to looks - someone else (Tawney?) would be able to give you a more informative picture as I haven't been around the breed that long.

The Utonagan are similar to the beautiful Northern Inuit in many ways. Years ago they were all Northern Inuit but after a parting of the ways by some breeders, the Utonagan was developed along a different path and so they are now different but remain closely linked and usually friendly (the owners). Sorry about MY English but I am very tired with a cranky baby tonight so not doing too well at stringing a sentence together .

Please - Ute owners, do correct me if I hvenot represented the breed in any way. I am only going by my Loki who, as we all know, has his own unique ways. Mischief being the chief one I think, hence his name!

There are some fascinating dogs on here and the posts are informative and interesting. Thank you, I've learnt a lot about these beautiful dogs.

To answer the above, these dogs may not like to bite,and may be good escape artists, but stick a chain round their neck in a garage or yard and they will find it difficult. I'm sorry but saying they'll just escape from being badly treated isn't doesn't make it okay, because they probably wouldn't be able to.
I'm sure they are magnificent, surely then you would want to protect them?

the variation in looks is because some people are now favouring shorter haired dogs, the dogs that were originally from Eddie Harrison were long haired with a thick undercoat and I have tried to stay true to the type she bred. In the litter my 2 came from the mother was a rough (long) haired and the father a short haired, so we had a mixture of types in the litter. Funnily enough, in the first litter from the same parents there are ones that are near doubles of both my 2, so they have bred true to type.
What you say about their temperament is absolutely true LS, they are loyal, affectionate and have big hearts. My 2 are useless at retrieval, will eagerly chase the ball, sniff at it and then go off and play somewhere else, leaving me to 'fetch' the ball!!!!
I am enjoying training them, they do really funny things and it is a joy to be with them and be associated with them.

First my apologies, I hope you don’t mind multiple postings to reply to multiple interventions by others – but I find it tends to keep things simpler.

The main point of my argument is that the CSW is to be found throughout Europe, and that what you fear Ailsa, that the wolfdogs will be misused and mistreated is simply not a widespread phenomenon for now. I honestly do not believe that in the UK dogs are treated (on average) worse than they are in the rest of the world (in fact I was under the impression that the opposite was true) so I admit at being baffled at your comments. Do you really think people over there are so terribly cruel to dogs that the mere act of introducing a breed to the UK condemns that breed to suffering and cruelty?

It may be stating the obvious, but of course ill treating dogs is not something that is “ok”. If someone for a moment believes that because I said that wolfdogs tend to escape from places where they are not wanted I am in some way encouraging people to mistreat them – then they are wrong. That was never my intent and I will never get tired of saying it – don’t mistreat a dog. Ever.