Dobermann Discussions

You've lost me as well Dawn ( easy done I know ) but when you say 'Not silly' ......what do you mean ?

I don't think Murph would let anyone in the car without my say so :? ..and umberellas ? ...everyone knows how scarey they are ;-) ...Dobes have a sensitive side and so if they've not been exposed to lots of sounds ,sights etc then they can be skittish at new things ....I remember Murph barking ,hackles up at a 'new' scarecrow for a good 5 mins but once he'd sniffed it ,pee'd on it never gave it a second glance
When you say you've never seen a dobe defend their owner from a direct threat ..do you mean they back down ?
and is it a staged threat ? I'm sure they'd pick up on body language of a real threat ...I've never had to put it to the test ..and hopefully never will ;-)

HI Murphy (or his mom!)
Dobermanss are not supposed to be frightened of things, the breed standard states "Bold and alert, shyness or viscousness highly undesirable" Sadly there are a lot of Dobes who are frightened of their own shadow, "windy" when confronted with strange situations, its not typical of the breed.

One Dobermann club has been holding temperament tests for years, a few of the things are walking past different objects, one such being an Umbrella, I doubt a Yorkie would freak at it, but many Dobes do. They also have a "friendly approach" by way of people stopping and chatting to others, to see how the dog reacts, and also a "direct threat" where a man or woman approaches in an unfriendly manner, usually shouting or pointing at the handler, the dogs reaction is not meant to be kill on sight, but a dog that backs off, hides behind the handler or appears frightened is very very undesirable. The Dog should stand its ground, it doesnt have to go forward, but it should never go backwards. The tests are done on a one to one basis in a wood type area, normal dog walking country if you like, and there must be NO encouragement by the handler, its to test the dogs reactions and strength of character. Its not a staged area, no dogs or people are near, well away and only judges can "see" whet is going on from a safe distance.

"Silliness" as I mention is all unessasary behaviour, nervy if you like, but most people say "dont be silly" not "dont be nervy" so thats why I say it.

An emphasis on looks overtook this breed IMO, and of recent years breeders have strived to get back the correct temperament as well as looks, something they should be proud of, however temperament still leaves a lot to be desired in many dogs. Just my views, but the amount of top breeders turning to european bred dogs I think will confirm it.
Dawn.

mine would Pi$$ that test no probs. sorry Dawn, but my experience of the dobermann breeders I have encountered are not the ones you seem to encounter. Thank God.

As for the tests you listed earlier, I would not argue with any of them. Surely the idea is to improve the breed where ever possible, and anyone who resists testing should not be breeding.

Yes there are poor examples of the breed out there, physically and mentally, there are in all breeds. But not all of the mental problems are due to breeding, numpty owners have just as much influence.

My last dobe was protective and was never scared of anything until one day we built a snowman while he was asleep! (it was a late night erm slightly alcohol fueled creation).

My boy went out to the toilet before bed, no problem.

BUT when I let him out first thing next morning he looked at this, admitidly wonky, snowman and was very skittish about it. He continued to bark at it even when it melted and was reduced to a small mound of snow!

Now whether he was scared of the "snowman" or passing comment on our building ability remains to be seen

My new boy is still a pup so I can't be sure how he will react to new situations as an adult, certainly to date nothing has fazzed him.

I do however want a gentle boy, I don't have him as a guard dog, more a companion, so either way I'm on a win win situation

Argh seriously bad spelling again, apologies

Give me gentle every time. I would say Sydney is extremely well balanced. more than can be said for me

Thats fine, I suppose top exhibitors and breeders would perhaps argue that they are striving for the best mentally AND physically, you may disagree but you are entitled to that of course. They are after all trying to match the breed standard laid down, the blue print for the breed, most will breed for betterment of the breed, not to supply a pet market. Not saying anyone has bought from such breeders here.
Dawn.

Sorry Dawn ...but I think all dobes are windy

I think in this day and age when dobes have had such bad press, as an owner you try to train your dog to behave in most situations and ignore most things ...when walking in the street ( more so in quiet streets ) if someone approaches with a shopping trolley or something out of the ordinary ..immediatley Murph will raise himself an inch..no pulling but just on his tippy toes ;-) ..I see this as alert ...others see it as a threat :-( ..because of the breed .. I do agree with you about the looks thing ....We don't see any dobes where we live .... but when we've been to shows they do seem very small ..Murph is on the bigger side ;-)
I would describe Murph as alert ,aloof ,bold and a bit skittish..not nervous ..daft and dancy ;-)
I have a nervous terrier and so the difference between
them is immense and to be truthfull ..give me the bold any day
At the end of the day ...I'm happy with my Murph ...he's my mate and we're in lurve ;-) ;-)

I see that as alert too, nothing wrong with that at all.

I dont think Dobes should be taught anything like guarding at all, especially pet dogs, natural instinct and breed character makes them them dog they are, I believe we should preserve this temperament, not alter the breed to suit ourselves. I feel strongly about this but obviously I respect other peoples opinions when they dont. Its also something I cherish in my own breed the Border Terrier. In my opinion, a correctly tempered Dobe, will protect his property, defend his family, and not back away from sombody that threatens it, you still have the lovable clown, your faithfull companion, again, everything a Dobermann should be. Murphy sounds lovely, and a few more pics wouldnt go amiss. (hint)
Dawn.
Dawn.

Well isn't that what i said the other day when we were discussing reputable breeders and you disagreed, or certainly appeared to. looks like you are confusing all of us one way or another.

Dont be so pedantic Trouble, you seem to have a dig at every oppertunity because people dont agree with you, give it a rest. I know what I said I said it! and I still say that some breeders do not health test and do not breed from sound tempered dogs, I am not changing that.
Dawn.

me being picky and pedantic, actually dawn that is you, frankly could not care less whether you agree or not but do object to the sudden about face.
I was defending the reputable breeders and you implied they did not exist.
I have no doubts about my breeders and seeing as I have no intentions of ever breeding, have no reason to defend myself. I do however object to the blanket slur on all dobermann breeders launched the other day.

Please find where I said ALL breeders, you are just defending your breeders, thats fine, I havent said a word against them, but you do seem very protective for some reason, I dont know why. This isnt about YOUR breeders and just YOUR dogs, its about the breed as a whole, not just pets, not just working dogs, the Dobermann!
Dawn.

Forgot to add, and yes there are breeders who some would class as reputable that do NOT health test their stock!

Dawn, believe it or not, I am not trying to fall out with you . You do appear to be quite knowledgeable about the breed. I am not trying to say that your not, but you were critical of the breed as it is today, and the breeders, which is what i was defending. If I am being protective of them, it is only because they are unable to defend themselves on here as they do not use the site. They are not alone, in doing the health checks that you are so keen on, and surely that is worth defending. It is better to encourage those that are doing all they can to develop the breed in a positive way, rather than complain that they are not doing enough, or not everyone does as much. I applaud all there efforts, and yours too. If it makes everyone more aware of the potential problems, that can only be a good thing, whether those dogs are to become champions in the show ring or just in our hearts.

I am critical of some breeders yes, I am not the type to stand back and watch as it were, I have always said what I think, I was always taught to tell the truth. I know there are decent breeders out there, I have been involved with rescue, showing, working and breeding Dobermanns for 18yrs, there are a terrific amount of breeders who live and breath Dobermann, but there are those who live and breath showing, and those that just produce pets to sell as pets.

I mentioned Continental bred Dobes earlier, the dogs on the Continent have the soundest of temperaments they really do, they stand a Dobe on the end of a 6ft lead and its stands by itself, it does not shy away like some do here when being held by their handlers, and they dont try to kill eachother too, like many here do. The health tests are a MUST, no pass, no breeding, so much better IMO.

In my 2 Dobes, I have had VWD, Cardiomyopathy and Wobblers syndrome, and the one that had Cardio and VWD was a very well bred dog, from a top exhibitor and breeder, and his breeding is behind a lot of winning dogs today. This is why I wont have another Dobe, unless you live through it, you cant know how it feels.

I know that a lot of breeders do care and I know that a lot dont, I am going along to the Dobermann show on Sunday, will be interesting to see the standard of dogs there as the judge is reknowned for continental breeding and correct tempered dogs.

I do agree with credit where credit is due and those that do all the relevant health tests are certainly the first people I would contact if I wanted another Dobe, so yes a big thumbs up to them.
Dawn.

This blood test you mentioned i don't think is recomended any more. It has to be a dna test which is a scraping of skin from inside the mouth. I sent Morgan's to America i won't mention the name incase i am not allowed to. I was told that it has been known for samples to be sent away and sat around and deteriated and given false results however they seam to have sorted even this now by having a dead line. If you miss it it is returned to you. I was recomended the American company as they are very quick and mine came through a little after a week. If it is not a dna test it can not be registered as tested. That was what i was told. The other health issues seam to be under control nowadays but i think its quite recent. If there were any hint of HD dobermanns would not have the beautiful movement they have and most in this part of the country can compete against smaller breeds and win for movement. There is even a web site which lists all the tested dogs and it contains a data base which includes thousands of dogs and is all the work of one women. Some of the breeding from America have health problems but we tend to have the continental breeding in our pedigrees. I may have been lucky so far perhaps but everyone i know have healthy dogs who live to 12 or 13. I have Morgans heart checked everytime he goes to the vets even if its only for a booster just in case. Caught early it can be treated but it can come on suddenly just as it does in rottys and as it does in humans. I did have a friend years ago who lost her dobe pup before it was a year but this was at least 15 years ago when they wasn't even aware there was a problem. Also she did not buy from a reputable breeder.

I noticed you said the person who bred your dog is behind the pedigrees of todays dogs which is exactly my point there were no sound tests as they have today. Also you said that the continental dogs are more sound in temperament. I happen to agree with you on this but its not widely accepted. Apparently the most common reason for death according to a European pet insurer is put to sleep due to temperament problems. I have never found this and have one of each. Like wise my English is very calm and steady. In this matter i think its upbringing, the breed atracts the wrong type of owner. One man told me he used to punch his dog in the mouth and it bit him. How stupid can you get!!

Hi Morgandy.
The ELISA blood test is still used a lot and is done regularly. I know that some Vets are doing these tests as a pre med to untested VWD affected breeds. Tests sent to the states are DNA, I have done a few of these, there was a company that did them cheaply around 3/4yrs ago and they did have discrepancies, but in 98% of retested dogs the results were the same.

One man told me he used to punch his dog in the mouth and it bit him. How stupid can you get!!
I doubt you will get much more stupid at all.:-(
Dawn.

This is a long post, sorry I don’t have time to input much, but, to skim Dawns points on Wobblers, VW etc, these conditions are almost unknown these days in Europe and have been for many years, they certainly are not a Dobe problem there as such.

No idea why they became such a problem here, mixing American lines with European back in the 50’s onwards and to date might indicate a possible origin.

But show standards here are so low that it does not matter a dam what hereditory disorders the dog has. Not suprisingly they are not even recognised at international level what can you expect – No ZTP guarantees of anything ‘cept disaster, not that I have any interest in UK shows except the damage the breeding does (sorry, has done) to the breed.

The reason the various Dobe clubs & KC here will under no circumstances approve of a ZTP is because it would eliminate all but a few of dozen from an FCI internationally recognised Dobe breed standard and KC will loose its registration fees, which is all it's intersted in. The ones which would get through would be a high % of those from Euro imported stock and which have been mated to compatible Euro lines for those particular dogs.

Basically, if the ZTP started in the UK the breed would have to start again from just a few dozen dogs, what people are attempting is to ‘quick fix patch’ up their own dogs, sorry, it has not worked and will never work. The other reason they do it is to get some 'International Champions' on their pedigree which they themselves cannot obtain.

On another page Dawn gave a common example of the arbitrary way this is attempted, here. They tried breeding to get a better head, so they mixed some Euro dogs with their standard Euro head with the UK stock, how often have I seen/heard that sort of thing here in UK.

B#~^y Hells fire – THAT is a recipe for utter disaster, it does not just possibly change the head!
– it changes the ENTIRE genetics of the dog. EVERYTHING has a high probability of changing dramatically and the proof is out there for all to see, you end up with all kinds of character & conformation traits which have very little uniformity throughout the breed here.

Do they get anomalies in Europe? Yes they certainly do get small numbers of dogs with problems, BUT, the ZTP eliminates them from the breeding program, they don’t get a breeding licence in other words, which means they cannot issue a pedigree registered by the breed registration club (KC here) to any offspring.

Morgandy
Also you said that the continental dogs are more sound in temperament. I happen to agree with you on this but its not widely accepted.

Clob
I also said they don’t have uniform ( or less predictable ) temperaments here. What is classed as a poor temperament here is probably something closer to a Euro Dobe temperament.

ZTP asses the fighting drives and several other things (fighting drive does not mean ‘dog fighting’).

– High Fighting Drive is always favoured as a very good characteristic if its combined with other favourable character areas of the ZTP, middle fighting drive is ok, low might well face elimination from the breeding program if its combined with poor results on some other things.

What needs to be remembered here is that apart from breeders who are SchH orientated or some high level or working backgrounds very, very few, if any, breeders do an serious training at all and they can give almost no help to an owner of their pup if they have mixed it with a Euro import and it starts showing some working dog characteristics early on.

In Europe that’s totally opposite. Every national champion in Germany must be at least Schutzhund 1, on top of that there is ZTP, the breeder is the trainer.

All Dobes (and many other breeds ) in Europe must have at least Sch 1 or ZTP, together with all the hereditary disorder tests for that country, to get a fit for breeding licence, so breeders there are all bar none quite competent trainers.

Haveing said all that, the most important part of any dogs training starts (again in Europe) at around 2 weeks, the imprinting period has begun around then, sensory enrichment is the begining.

At 4 weeks the enrichment increases and training prgramm begins, it is intense, ALL working and some working/show breeders take holiday time off work for this and it is all their lives consist of in this period. These are the critical weeks in the dogs life and map its future. At 8 weeks to 13 the owner takes the dog and most continue untill the crtical imprinting period is over at 16 weeks.

I dont think it's temprament problems as such here, I think the normal European Dobermann temprament is totaly unsuitable for the the training methods/standards of the average owner here who wants a nice placid dog which is not to active (in comparison), breeders should not 'mess about' by trying to patch up what they see as problems because that simply causes problems - i

Here all KC is interested in is pay the pups registration fee and do what the hell you like with the dogs, and boy do they do just that, its only a number on a PC data base after all.

I'll PM a bit later Dawn, to early for me all this but no other time.

I think most of the 'problems' in pedigree dogs, what ever the breed, stem from the fact that in the UK anyone can buy a bitch and have a litter. There are no standards or regulations that MUST be met before breeding and registering a litter of puppies. The KC will accept registrations from anyone, the parents do not have to be health tested or temerament tested. Registering puppies is major income for the Kennel Club.

There are always the people out there that pay mega bucks for a pup and decide that they will then make their money back, they put no thought into what they are doing to the breed in general and just mate their dog to any old dog that pops up. There are more of these types of dog breeders than of the ones who take the time to get to know their breed and the problems that they might have. All they want is a quick turnover. All you need to do is read the Breed Records Supplement for any breed, any quarter, it just shows how many are one-off litters. It is not even difficult to register an affix which many 'breeders' think will give them credibility, not so at all.

My first Dobes harkened back to Tavey bloodlines,(Iceberg of Tavey, Philleens Duty Free of Tavey to name a couple), in those days breeders earnt their good names, nowadays dogs are big money.

There are too many out there who buy a dog and then after a few months of owning that breed suddenly become experts in their chosen breed, I have had Dobes for 25 years but only had four!! That doesn't make me an expert at all, just means I love the breed and will always have a Dobe.

My present Dobe, Cody, is rescued, I have no idea what his bloodlines are, probably a pet breeder as he is undocked. He is wonderful with people, especially children, he loves my grandkids who are aged 1 and 3. He also prevented me from being mugged whilst out late at night, he didn't bark or carry on. Just stood in front of me growling and baring his teeth, the youths threatening me took one look and cleared off pretty damn quick. As soon as they did he stopped threatening and walked home quite happily. He has had no training whatsoever, it has not been needed as he is naturally well behaved.

Some interesting reading in these posts so thank you.

I've got a five month old Dobe bitch who arrived in our household as a 'surprise'. My OH and kids arranged it via a friend who is for all intent and purposes a 'one-off' pet breeder although I use breeder in a loose way. She wanted her Dobe to have a litter and that was it. OH did research (on his own!) about the breed and felt it right - I have to agree that even in this short time she is an absolute joy - mad but a faithful friend.

Now I met my pups mum, wasn't impressed with her behaviour - very bullish and as my silly 13 year old daughter jumped when she first barked, the Dam kept standing over her and barking in her face.

Our pup displays similar characteristics - a bit too bold when it comes to strangers in the house. Has a tendency to get carried away and still uses her teeth to get attention (mostly when she's tired and is settling down to sleep but it is becoming less frequent).

I had no idea about health issues with the breed until I read the mountain of books the first week we had her. I have learned to be in tune with her behaviour and intuitively sense when something is likely to pose a problem.

Her brother (who we see regulary as another friend has taken him) is soft, kind and a bit of a gentle giant - the complete opposite. From talking to the breeder it appear that all the girls are highly strung and the boys are laid back - there were 11 puppies altogether (six boys and five girls).

With good training, routine and lots of love I'm sure everything will settle down. She has got a lot of love inside her wee body and we do have the advantage that she has someone at home at all times.

Would totally agree though that if I were to do it again we'd go to an experienced breeder and ensure we checked out a few things before going ahead.