Do we know what we own? Discussions

I kind of see the point your trying to make but dont agree with it at all, dogs are pack animals all dogs ancestors lived in packs, dog agression was bred into them which was a bad thing, if people are now trying to breed it out that is a very good thing! It does not take away from a dogs personality if they are not dog agressive it means they can enjoy the company of other dogs and go out places where other dogs are.
My sister has a dog aggresive staffy she cant take him out for walks when theres alot of dogs around because its too much of a nightmare, she cant take him with her when she visits family because they have dogs, he was a rescue and she now has a staffy puppy who he has accepted but is never left on his own with, she gets to go out in the day for walks and around family and loves playing with other dogs, he is a rescue and is missing out on all this because his previous owners didnt bother to put the effort in to socalise him properly! They are both very lovable characters and the only difference between them is that the pup is probably happier because she gets to go more places and play with other dogs!!

What is bad about breeders breeding out a trait that does no favours to their breed? A good breeder will only breed from a dog with the best health and best temperament-surely dog aggression would be seen as a temperament flaw, therefore any dog which had such a temperament would not be bred from?

A person could go out and see a border terrier ratting, then go buy a border terrier pup tomorrow and for the next 15 years this dog could live quite happily with small furries-yes that instinct would never fully be abolished, but as i said previouslly IMO its 'Nurture, Not Nature'. Yes staffords were once a fighting breed, but Mastiffs were once used by the Romans to 'hunt' man-would this sorta behaviour be deemed acceptable in todays society if they exhibited such behaviour? I highly doubt it. A Stafford brought up correctly, discouraged as muchas possible from any aggression, socialised in this best possible way will grow into a well mannered, well adjustered member of the family, JMO of course.

Then if you can't trust them with another animal, not even another household pet-then how can you trust them at all?:? (a genuine quiestion.)
All of our staffords lived happily with other dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea-pigs, ferrets, ducks-you name it, we had it! Never was any aggression displayed towards any of our other pets-we trusted them 100%. We only ever had one stafford who disliked strange dogs and that was sheerly from an incident when he was younger when he was attacked by an X breed, and sadly he never overcame this. However, in his adult life he was under our control to the extent that we knew if ever he was in a situation with another dog, and we called him back-he would listen. This is JMO but if one doesn't trust one's dog in all situations (regardless) 100 % then in my eyes one would not be in total control of their dogs, and this too me screams danger.

No disputing that all owners should do extentive research prior to getting a puppy of a select breed. However, i disagree that it should be expected for a Stafford to fight or kill (your words not mine) another dog, and it is views/opinions and such like this that, IMO, put people off certain breeds like the staffords. Yes fighting is bred into them, yes it very well could be a habbit that would never 100% be gone within the breed-however, with the correct upbringing and the hard work of reputable breeders we can strive for a much more well tempered, non dog aggressive stafford of the future-HOWEVER, in my eyes most well brought up staffords never exhibit such behaviour as dog aggression, i have merely said the previous statement for the benefit of such folk who have a view that all present day staffords will at sometime fight with a dog and display anti-social behaviour towards other canines.

I love Staffords too, more than what people think, however in my eyes i would do anything for this breed to be bettered, and if breeding out (which in many present day dogs it would seem has been acheived) the anti social dog behaviour would save this breed from receiving such bad press, from making such viscious attacks, from being the IN accessory to yobs then yes i would happily stand back and allow it to happen.
This whole thing about staffords being naturally dog aggressive, is something that is starting too annoy me, its the sort of view often kept and expressed by such people who give this breed a bad name. Such people who go around allowing, often encouraging, and bragging about there dogs dog aggression-to me, this is inapropriate and anyone who behaves in such a way doesn't deserve to own any dog, let alone a breed like the stafford whom, if not brought up correctlly, has the potential to be somewhat dangerous.
This is all JMO of course But i stand strong to the value of: Nurture, not Nature.

*gets off soapbox*

hi law1

Maybe i should have made myself clear!

Many idiots take on a bull breed because they think they are HUMAN agressive as well as dog agressive which is not the staffordshire bull terrier as far as human agression goes, but the instict to fight other animals is in there! i wasnt talking dog agressive but human agressive!



My dogs could turn on each other and have to be watched and its my duty to make sure that doesnt happen and same for any other dogs that comes near my staffords! all on leads and ask the owner to get thier dog under control as my 3 could harm thier dog!
You dont have to remove something that is apart of the dog, u as the owner SHOULD control it!

Physically breeds may be changed/changing, not allways for the better i do admit. However, the only way i see the temperaments and natures and behaviour of breeds changing is for the better
JMO

luke u are highly lucky that your staffords never turned on each other

Borris attacked my old lurcher and for no reason other than he was guarding a toy! so for that reason i know borris has that instict more than bessie, so i have to watch him with the other pack, bessie is great and only turns when other dogs turn on her, but as i know she can turn i will never allow her to run free with other dogs! quinns a pup and im not sure how he will turn out! he meets other dogs ON LEAD and its fully under control!
There is no issues in my house luke but i do own 3 staffordshire bull terriers and i know what they are capable of, so therefor i wont risk it and i control it

Control is the best way forward, to breed it out because your to lazy to deal with what staffords are capable of doing is stupid, why change the breed to suit your needs!

please stop trying to change our breeds if it dont suit you then look for another breed that suites your need

There are many breeds out there that dont have dog agression issues or insticts, if you are not prepared to control then please think carefully before you take a dog on with dog agression instincts

Thats how all breeds were made we took the traits we wanted to use and bred them into the dog and bred out the traits we didnt want!! Staffies were bred to fight other dogs but we now see how barbaric a sport that is and dont want our dogs to fight each other but to get on and in my opinion breeding the agression in in the first place was the mistake breeding it out now means all the good traits of the staffy could be properly appreciated! They are wonderful, loving dogs who make great companions when brought up correctly, why should this wonderful breed die out because they are no longer needed for fighting when the fighting instinct can be bred out of them and they can instead be wonderful companions?!

I agree with your post Luke, and I also believe that if we are breeding to take out dog aggression, then that is surely better news. But I think personally, like has been mentioned, if you curb this behaviour whilst young and socialise ANY dog properly, you wouldn't have to worry about keeping the dogs on lead and warning others, becasue you will have a happy-well socialised dog that can tackle any issues thrown at it.

I've only just picked up on this part of a post and it spoke volumes too me..slighty OT yet still on topica if you get me?
Florrie..a west highland white terrier crossed with a dandie dinmont terrier, bred to create a working terrier but with bloodlines going back to the older terrier breeds which have very little place in the field anymore, she was bred for three gens of working lines..i trained her for vermin dispatch but you know what? She hasn't got 'it'. She can do the job sure, but shes just too soft! She doesn't go chasing anything small n furry in the fields either, she oddly is 100% reliable off the lead. All of these are hardly terrier traits i would say! I researched her 'breeder' and purchased her to do a job aswell as be a pet, and cause of an expected fieryness. She just didn't have the flame to be a proper working terrier-does that mean i love her any less?No it certainly does not!
When researching a breed we have an outline of the temperament toe expect, the outline of the charcter to expect and so forth-yes? This doesn't mean that the dog you purchase will be exactly like this, by no means does it so.
You buy a retriever-does it mean it will definatley retrieve?
You buy a hound-does it mean it will definatley hunt?
you buy a terrier-does it mean it will definatley hunt (in its own way)?
you buy a bull breed-does it mean it will be dog aggressive, and fight?
The answer too all of the questions is simple, centuries of breeding has formed the breeds we know and love today, when we buy a puppy of a certain breed we go for it for the simple fact this breed poses the charcter and looks of what we want. However, the breed has been formed by centuries of breeding for a purpose and by no means can this be taken out of the breed by its raising, and by no means would people want it too be-but the pup will turn out how you bring them up!
With every breed we have a general idea of what to expect when we take on that little puppy..no disputing this, but to me it just doesn't seem right to accept that ALL staffords will be dog aggressive, that ALL hounds will be avid hunters and so forth.
I love staffords, they are very close to my heart but i would never have another-know why? Because the breed no longer is what "i want from a dog", because due to bad breeders, bad owners, general fools who deem the dog's dog aggressive and allow them to be so-the breed has changed, to me it has changed, to me a stafford is no longer a high spirited family member-it has changed into something..something else, people are saying discouraging dog aggression, breeding it out of the breed, raising a pup to know that such behaviour is totally unacceptable is changing the breed, i care to disagree. In my eyes, the breed already has changed, it has changed into a dog where some people deem it acceptable and very well (sadly) encourage such aggressive behaviour. A dog aggressive dog looses its appeal instantlly to me. There are plenty of lovely Staffords around, i know, but they just seem too have changed to me.
I know plenty are reading my posts and plenty are disagreeing, plenty even think i am rambling, but i am here to express my opinions concerning a breed i once loved (and secretlly still do), not to insult anyone, not to cause offence to anyone and certainly not to bash the breed!

Surely as a responsible owner if you know your dogs have such aggresive tendencies towards other dogs, then surely you would seek assistance in trying to curb/rectify such problems?
Polly my old JRT was slightly dog aggressive, slighty strange people fearfull too-however after a lot of work i got her to a level where i knew she didn't like other dogs, but that i was in control, i kept away from situations where she would be in close contact with other dogs for a long time. The last two years of her life we got even on a higher level, to which she could be around other dogs-even off the lead and was fine.
I just can't see why someone with a dog aggressive dog wouldn't at least TRY to rectify the problem:?
And i don't think we were lucky, we just had well adjusted dogs that had been brought up no different to any other breed-all dogs of mine regardless of breed, sex, or age are and allways shall be raised and trained the same

Sorry i just disagree...yes they have the instinct there after centuries of breeding-but with the correct upbringing i know, from first hand experience, that many staffords can and are fine with other dogs, and other animals-whether they be household or strangers.

Interesting

"In the Early Days, 100 years ago...
Early records tell us that the Doberman in Germany was a dog used by men as a guard dog. A dog that was alert, fearless, aggressive, intelligent, and trainable. The dogs were described as being "sharp" and became very popular as a police and watch dog. This type of temperament may have been accepted and desired in the rural settings of the past, but certainly not a temperament or dog that could survive in the urban society of today.

The Doberman of Today...
During the past 100 years the committed Doberman breeder has been able to produce a much milder/steadier disposition than the earlier dogs exhibited. Upon close examination, the breed is found in a variety of working positions as well as being an excellent dog for competition performances, the conformation ring, and a devoted family dog/clown/couch potato."

So you want aggressive dogs?

In that case it would seem you don't love your breed very much, because any dog breed with a predisposition to be 'aggressive' will risk being put on the DDA.

I can't see why any responsible owner would want to keep such traits in their dog.

ah you said what i was trying to some amongst all my rambling rants Azz!

luke i dont allow my dogs to be agressive ever and never will, i just control it prevent it, my dogs are well loved and the most happiest you will ever see!
I just know what i own and i dont pretend or try to change my breed
because real staffords lover wouldnt want to change thier breed as its the stafford we love!

Not for one minute would i question your love or the care your dogs receive
Indeed, we all admit to the foibles our chosen breeds have-but never would i imagine someone to encourage or allow such things when they are preventable.
I love the breed as much as the next person, but i think you are utterly misguided concerning the aggression aspect-sorry if that sounds harsh.
To me, and i know to many others (some of whom have since left the breed because of the following), the Stafford has changed-it has changed as people are allowing and even encouraging aggression-yes, they have the instinct there but it shouldn't be allowed and shouldn't be encouraged. Sorry but if ever i had a stafford again (not likely as the breed, for me, has been spoilt) it would be by know means aggressive to other dogs or animals, i wouldn't stand for such behaviour and would train the dog to my upmost abilities not to be dog aggressive.
How anyone could even contenplate, let alone actually, condone their dog being dog aggressive when they could change it mystifies me.

azz of course i love my dogs
BUT i prevent any dog fights my controling my animal!
I could let bessie off lead and let her play but as i wouldnt risk that then im being a good dog owner, bad dog owners would always allow them to play off lead without thinking what these dogs are capable of!

Borris has attacked mungo bean and thats it, bessie has snarled when others turn on her and as for quinn hopefully nothing will ever happen
SO I KNOW WHAT THEY CAN DO right? so there for i prevent anything from happing again

So if i let my dog play with other dogs and it attacks another dog then id be called a bad owner and rightly so

Its in staffords to turn for no reason, surely you have heard of house holds that have had no dog agression issues then bang they attack each other, no amount of hard work to take away the dog agression issue will ever take away the staffords instinct to fight! anything can trigger it, maybe not the first time but could be the next time its there!

I disagree with dog fighting compelety, but on the same hand i dont pretend that they were not bred for fighting! I know what my dogs are capable of! I understand what they can do and by making sure my babies dont kill or attack another dog makes me a good owner

I also think if you cannot control your dog and see what it CAN do then you shouldnt be owning that dog

also azz
i dont think many people should own staffords
so therefor i put it that only select people have staffords and that way they will control thier staffords, no fights will happen and that way we can keep our breed the way it is, because the owners have 100 percent control!

prevention and control

luke agree on one thing here hun

and this is it

shouldn't be encouraged

damn right it shouldnt! but u dont need to take it away from the breed you just control it

NO it isnt...gosh thats a harsh statement.

ANY dog is capable of biting, being dog aggressive etc..

For that the onus is placed on BAD owners, it's certainly not the dogs.

I would like to think that anyone who posts here is under no illusion of what their dogs are capable of, ANY dog of ANY breed. There are many breeds that have a history of being bred for fighting - not just Staffords, many of those breeds are also owned by members that post here and I am sure they would look towards these traits being bred out of those breeds only to better them - breeding out these traits does not destroy a breed or shatter its 'Spirit'