Do we know what we own? Discussions

Actually thats claptrap been talking to my Grandfather (whose been a Stafford enthusiast for well over 60 years)

He says he remembers it WELL and still has the article somewhere that he said he will sort out and let me scan onto the site. Our Dogs ran an article on these dogs in 1933 after an article about 'miners fighting dogs' infact my Grandfather being a Midlands man through and through coming from Cradley Heath remembers as a boy 'The Cradley Heath Club' he went on to say the purpose of that particular club was to make moves to get the Staffordshire Bull Terrier recoginsed as a breed.

Obviously I will take his word as gospel as he was there at the time by no means is he an expert but he would perhaps have years on many

I also understand that the white strain was introduced from the White English Terrier, which also resulted in the "sharp, pricked up ears, distinctive colour and athletic shape that distinguish the modern bull terrier today".

Hang on there's more.

"Bulldogs were crossed initially with black and tan terriers to produce a smaller, lighter and more agile dog - but still a dog with a ferocious nature that could be used for the dog fighting contests, often to the death, that were so popular in Britain's big cities. These dogs were known as Bull-and-Terriers and possesed the stamina and strenght of the Bulldog and the intelligence, speed and agility of the Terriers.

In the 1850's a Birmingham man named James Hinks mixed the White English Terrier into the Bull-and-Terrier strain - and crossed Dalmations too - to produce a longer, straighter-legged and more athletic creature, very much closer to the Bull Terrier of today. The dogs were also white with occasional patches of black.

Some fanciers attribute the Bull Terrier's famous egg-shaped head with no "stop", to Hinks' work, but this may also be the result of futher crossings with Borzois and Smooth Collies.

Colour was then introduced into the breed to help eliminate some of the problems of deafness and albinism that are so much associated with white dogs."

cannot believe this is still going on.

For me Hayley is deluded and misguided and what i class as the wrong type of Staffie owner anyway and i worry for her dogs and the future dogs she will have.

Its a sad state of affairs that in this day and age with all the problems that staffies face with thousands all over the country being put to sleep in rescue, shot at, abused, drowned, and fought to the death that a select portion still want their dogs to be aggressive for that "true" staffie spirit - what a load of absolute crap.

I must be the worst staffie owner in the world cos I want my dog to be loyal, loving, and a joy to own - which APART from when he is trying to pull me over to get to another dog he absolutely is.


I will continue to own staffies and they will be rescue ones at that as I am one of the ones picking up the pieces of the result of people like Hayley and her misguided "dogmen and woman" who want to continue to allow the staffie to be owned by morons.

Not relevant to the thread but here.



This is my Staffie x who is now two years old, she come to us out of an abusive situation we were originally only going to foster her but when more details on her background were told to us we couldnt part with her. As you can probably see from the photo she holds the scars from her past, mainly burns, you can only see one of the 'marks' on her body which is scarred but she has burn marks all down her neck about the size of my thumbnail, the one on her back which you can see from the photo is the size of the palm of my hand. I would agree with our vets opinion that the ones she has on her chest & neck are more than likely cigarette burns, the one on her back I would hate to think how she obtained that injury, god only knows.
When we took her on, she wasnt aggressive infact she would hide for days on end the back of our sofa, she also did not display any fear aggression towards our other dogs it was more the case she didnt want anything to do with them in the early days.
Shes been with us for just over a year now and what a fantastic little dog shes turned out to be - she hasnt lost any of her spirit it was just 'broken'...Broken by people who perhaps wished she was more aggressive.
I like many others here wouldnt hesitate giving another dog like our little girl a home, because whatever has been 'broken' can be fixed our little treasure is a shining example of that.
I really do think owners who wished their Staffords not to back down really shouldnt own them, if Daisy had of stood her ground she maybe wouldnt be with us today.

What I am saying is: "There is NO documented proof of crossing between Bulldogs&Terriers in the production of the present day Staffordshire bull terrier" There is documentation of crossings made to the Bulldog ie: "Lord Orford a keen coursing fan crossed Bulldogs with his coursing Greyhounds to add bone density and tenacity as he felt his Greyhounds were becoming to fine and lacked the desire to see the course through to a conclusion. "This took place in 1800s and IS documented" The reference to "The shorter heavier dogs being more able to stand their ground" is another misnomer, as any research into the historical occupation of The Staffordshire bull terrier and their close relatives The American Pit Bull Terrier shows this clearly not to be the case.For the most part these were tales construded by those producing those types to aid in pup sales and such like. This is possibly where the breeding of Dogs for fashion as opposed to function first raised its head??

If you had taken the time to read what I had written, you would have noticed the word invented was placed in "Inverted comma's" my way of questioning the fact of Bull Terriers being the sole domain of one man James Hinks.

Your Grandfather is 100% correct it was in the early 30s that a group first approached The Kennel Club with a veiw to having their dogs/bitches recognised as a Pedigree breed. it was not until "1935" and recognition by the KC that their efforts became fruitful.

I have seen pups returned to breeders, "at maturity" because in one form or other they have shown traits, "well defined for anyone who takes the time to understand fully The Staffordshire bull terrier, and traits explained fully at the time of purchase".

It is very thoughtful of you to give a "Psycological Analysis" of someone on line? Personally I think it in very poor taste, and beneath someone of your standing in others eyes.

Is there Terrier there?

The Staffordshire bull terrier, how much terrier if any, is present in our dogs. This question engages my mind every so often, I wonder if any other forum members have any thoughts on this. The main problem I have with the crossing to a terrier is what could it give to the Bulldogge that it did not already possess. Remember the original Bulldogge was a canine wrecking machine no other dog could match it at its pugilistic profession. I have read most if not all SBT books and their explanation for the crossing of the two, e.g. smaller dogs more agility and so on. What a load of bull!! For many decades working terrier men have introduced bull blood to their dogs, in order to maintain the grit required by these diminutive warriors. If any terrier ever existed that could add something to the Buldogge of old then I have never came across it. I think the biggest assumption that modern day authors make is that people of centuries past where somehow mentally incompetent. As far back as the Roman invasion of these shores individuals were given the task of procuring dogs for the arenas in Rome, you had to know a good dog your life literally depended on it. Henry VIII instigated the office of (Master of the Royal Game of Bears and Mastyve Dogs) it would be very presumptive indeed for any of us standing in today’s modern show rings to assume our knowledge of canines comes any where close to the knowledge of the canine species possessed by individuals of this and later periods. They may not have had the scientific knowledge that modern canine students utilise such as Genetic Inheritance, they based their breeding programmes on best to best principles in a time when best meant just that, along the Darwinian lines of survival of the fittest. Again nature showing the correct procedures. I believe almost two centuries ago people simply bred the smaller of the Bulldogges together and accomplished the reduction in size by this means, similar to many of today’s current breeds.

As you have already stated that there is NO documented proof how can you say that all that is written in the book is bull?!!!

The books are where most people get their research on the breed from. Are you saying that we shouldn't believe what is written in the books and listen souly to you as the voice of authority on this wonderful breed?

I'm sorry to say but that is the impression you are giving.

Originally Posted by HayleySBT
''Jas showed his spirit by giving a warning, people would like to see that go 100 percent and not even give a warning''

Thanks Mini, I missed that

Sorry Hayley as an owner of Glorious Bull Breeds I am NOT one of the people you talk of, I love my dogs and have the greatest respect for other peoples, I am not one of those people that have to turn my dogs around when faced on walks with oncoming dogs I dont even have to 'rein them in' so to speak, as they know how to behave and I trust them 100% in that respect. What I do expect from my dogs is to back down even when two of them have been attacked by other peoples dogs being run off the lead. What you have stated is monsterous and damning not only to your own dogs, but to any bull breed in general.
I just hope that sometime in the future that statement dont backfire in your face with your own dogs.

Amen to that mini!
All dogs are lovely and it doesn't matter about pedigree, cross breed, mongrel, new breed etc-however, without a pedigree (even 'new' breeds i.e the N.I, Old Tyme Bulldogge etc) have pedigree lines (i think), then surely one can not be 100% sure of what the blood content of their dog is?
Slightly digressing i know.

I am most certainly not saying that you or anyone else should take the slightest notice of what I write. I am merely putting forward MY own veiws on the validity of some, "aasumptions" made by canine authors over the centuries, "Perpetuated by those who take the written word as, "The absolute truth" as I have mentioned in my opinion present day practices mirror closely those of the past and I tend to place my trust in practice as opposed to theory. This whole question could be widened into a substancial and possibly informative debate were any members interested?

Hi Luke,

In answer to your question Olde Tyme Bulldogs do have pedigree lines, papers, registration certificates etc.

I can trace my dogs bloodlines way back

Obviously I cant speak for other Olde Tymes because there's different strains, but I do know whats gone into my dog.