Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Discussions

THANK YOU for answering my question!

Dharkwolf what an absolutely fantastic post, thank you so very much. You have answered all the questions I've been asking from the beginning, particualrly with regard to wolf content. Thanks.
I am fascinated by these dogs, totaly. They look and appear beautiful.
I think in the wrong hands there could be problems, as with any breed.
My main bone of contention, is the fact that so many people are saying, the UK is no better or worse than elsewhere, abuse happens with a lot of breeds. As frustrating as that is for you to hear (and I can appreciate how frustrating it is) I still don't really get that argument for their introduction here. You will be widening the market for the abuse of these dogs (and the love of them admittedly).
I do not know where i stand on their introduction in terms of wolf content, that's for the geneticists and people at DEFRA not me I'm afraid. I do have concerns, as you know, but would be fascinated by this breed (and almost tempted were it for my new and total love of flat coats;-) ) were they introduced. I just think we should be careful introducing new breeds over here and wonder why we are doing it and what will happen to those dogs when here...

Thank you again Dharkwolf your post was totally amazing and answered so many questions brilliantly. Many many thanks. Ax

Dharkwolf

If I could just answer your point on the UK owners..... I too don't consider the the UK to be the cesspit of the world when it comes to dog owners and breeders and I don't think any of the comments implied that others do.

My own comment on this was concerning UK owners as this was the matter under discussion and the population I'm most familiar with as I live here. I have no reason to think the ethics on dog ownership in the UK contrast with other countries as I know too few outside of the UK to make a reliable comparison.

Thank you for a very informative post. I too have learned much about your breed from this thread.

I couldn't agree more.

I suppose my 'attitude' ailsa stems from that I have dearly wanted one of these dogs myself for years and it kinda irritates that as with most things the irresponsible always spoil it for other people. Ok so call me selfish. I still don't see the difference if the puppies are born say in Germany or the UK? statistically there are = number of fools out there. And no I wouldn't want to increase the chances of anything happening to these dogs but cruelty of anykind to any breed is awful and you could rest assured if the idiots you are talking about can't get their hands on one thing it will be another...You are giving them to much credit really do you think their only focus will be on these dogs? These people are fickle, anything will do....I think you are just focused on the 'wolfdog' name but more than likely it's dogs like tea cup Chihuahua and miniature this and that, that are the most exploited.

Saying that, it is a must that if the dogs are allowed much responsibility should be placed on the first breeders to bring them in and I think a rescue should be set in conjunction and it would be a must that the temperament and needs of the dogs are the sole focus.

Maybe to place control over these dogs welfare and instead of just opening the flood gates there could be restrictions on how many breeders would be allowed each year and they would have to make some kind of application to verify that they are working in the dogs best interests.

Thing is also Ailsa what you are forgetting is that the dogs are already allowed in but you are supposed to have a DWA license so maybe to own the dogs a license should still be required to keep track of where abouts and progress of the breed etc but without having to keep them as a caged wild animal....Which to my mind is far more detrimental to the dogs seeing as they do require an awful lot of socialization yet the way the rules are at present you are not allowed to take them from your licensed premises without caging them first...How is that good for the dogs?

Hiya Mys,
I'd sort of guessed you quite fancied owning one!!!;-) I can see why too, but to know a dog will be mistreated, but still to bring it here...sorry, can't see past that in a lot of ways as I just don't get it. Perhaps, I do think it's a little selfish, yes. Sorry but that's probably my honest opinion.

As for policing the breed...come on Mys, you and I both know that's impossible and would never happen! Like the DDA is policed really well huh??? There's pitbulls being bred all the time, we all know it, noone can do anything about it, so lets not think legislation or reputable first breeders would do a thing to protect these dogs, if anything it would make them far more appealing to some.
As for them being allowed in already as long as they are kept as wild animals, well, that's exactly why someone who wants them as a pet or show dog, wouldn't bring them in. It's the law, it wouldn't suit these dogs...
I don't understand the line of thought, if they can't get their hands on one breed they'll abuse another...so does that make it okay to bring them in, so a different breed gets a break???
I totally agree that those with irresponsible ways spoil it for others, but sadly, at the moment I'm thinking the irresponsible ones outweigh the responsible...maybe it's just what I'm seeing.
No the uK isn't the cesspit of the animal world, but you know what, it isn't brilliant either. I think, to be honest, the uK is on the verge of more knee jerk legislation to do with dogs, as things are getting bad again, so to be honest, I think the chances of these dogs being allowed at the moment are minimal anyway.
They are beautiful dogs yes, and this thread is totally fascinating. Maybe one day???

An interesting article on wolfdogs:

http://www.anglianwolf.com/d_front_page/articles/general/wolfdogs/wolfdogs.htm

really intereseting and fair article LS! Ax Thanks

Oh my. I just went to read it, and after reading, that:

I almost passed out! How can somebody write such a nonsense, without checking the truth first?
I am Czech nationality myself, long-termed CSW owner and member of the CSW club, but I´ve never ever heard something so stu.pid!

Please, anyone who will go to see that link and read what is there, do not believe it. There was no Soviet military project and no mystery..
Not to mention, that the breed is FCI registered, and FCI as we know, is kind of international and not Eastern European institution.

And the dog is absolutely normal, good as pet as any other large working dog.

Thanks Mirkawolf - it is good to get a view from an owner.

As far as family pets go I much prefer this picture:



(nb for those of you who've not noticed yet, Mirka is my wife, she insists on posting unflattering pictures of me!)

Anyhow - this:

Is a bit silly - something which someone who has read too many spy novels came up with and who doesn't know much about Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. The "residual" wolfdog content of the dog above (my pup!) is actually 27,49% *exactly*. I know the exact figure because I can trace her pedigree all the way back to the wolf ancestors. (Closest wolf - 9 generations back, for those of you who are wondering). The Soviet military was never particularly interested in the CSW only the Czechoslovakian army used them, and they had lots of trouble with them as well - for a simple reason, at the time both armies were conscript armies. Every year each dog would be assigned to a new partner - wolfdogs in general do not like to change "owners". I would also like to point out that in the Czechoslovakian army (like in many other armies) they were nearly compulsive record keepers - as the breeding started in the army we are lucky to have both accurate and complete records of the wolfdogs ancestry. No - it was not a state secret, I'm afraid they would not have sent out Mr. Bond on a top secret undercover mission to figure out what the pedigree of my pup was... (though it would make for a fun movie huh?)

Oh and for Pod, who likes to have references to this sort of thing - the referece for the origins of the breed is Ing. Hartl - one of the founders of the breed. So we got the information from the very mouth of the horse, so to speak.

Cheers to all.

NB - addendum - Having looked at the whole of the article itself I find it to be quite interesting, and on the whole very informative. I may not agree on some of the particulars, but for the rest I find like the rest of you that it is interesting.

I have to confess that I've not read all the posts.

however as a UK person, I was put off by the Defra UK information. Particularly when it came to issues such as when they reach around 2 years old, the wolf instincts surface and can make them unpredictable.

it is difficult/nigh on impossible to have these dogs in the UK. What with all the rules and restrictions. to the point where it would be unfair to keep them here.

I therefore went with a northern inuit and am so in love with him! he does, at 14 weeks look very wolfy, but his temperament really fits in with our house of 3 other dogs. Even though one can't stand him, he stands his ground and adjusts his behaviour to compensate.

I have no real qualms about 'wolfdogs' - in the right hands (mine wouldn't be right, as I don't have the experience to handle one and do it justice).

However, I still have a lot of interest in them.

So regulations without the keeping them as wild animals part wouldn't work but regulations with keeping them as wild animals do work?...People get around rules no matter what only if you try under the DWA the dog will be taken away and euthanized...and yup responsible owners wouldn't put their dog to risk like that and wouldn't entertain the idea but seeing as we are so struck on irresponsibility these people risk it anyway.

Do you think their isn't already a market for wolf x this and that already?...and that it hasn't been going on for years and years??...and what about the dogs which don't contain wolf but are sold to naive idiots as hybrids?...It's not that they contain wolf in them that gets those into trouble it's that they arn't quite wolfy enough and they don't fit the bill so people don't want them anymore.

Do you not think the fact that these dogs are wrongly classed as Dangerous Wild Animlas already makes them incredibly appealing to some?

Do you not think that if that label were removed and they were seen as an ordinary domestic breed recognised by the KC and being shown at crufts that the hard man type would be less attracted to them?

I totally get what you are saying and we will never see eye to eye but you are trying to live in a perfect world...you may as well say you can't bear any dog ending up in less than ideal circumstances therefore put a ban on all future puppies being born to satisfy the pet market. I love the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos Wolfdogs but they are equal to all other dogs as far as I am concerned any dog suffering is awful in any country and it is always going to happen should there be no dogs at all?

People who want a wolfdog and who arn't putting the dogs well being first will get one no matter what be it importing one and avoiding the dwa license...buying some cross and exchanging money in a lay-by...or by plumping for a breed that they think is wolfy, Husky, Mals etc...or for one of the 'look a likes', Ute / NI...and any dog falling victim to an idiot will suffer the same.

Surely there are 100's of dogs from your chosen breed suffering out of all the litters born?...If you take one then you are encouraging the breeding of more and the possible suffering of more and because you care you probably did think twice about having a pup but you have one?

and maybe have you thought...If there was an official recognised wolfdog breed with good history such as these dogs that it would stop the market for money grabbing idiots ripping people off with all types of crosses?

Britain is the size of a pebble in the grand scheme of the rest of the world...by allowing the dogs here it wont be the downfall of the breed and you may laugh at me everytime I say that I do believe that there would actually be a great deal of protectiveness of these dogs but it tends to be the case in breeds like the Malamute and Siberian Husky and nine times out of ten if you can approach a breeder who does not question you as if you are in an interview then you know that breeder doesn't have the puppies best interests at heart but being someone who looked into those breeds more than not breeders seemed very protective of where their puppies were going to...Those like many other more rare breeds are very appealing to the wrong sort of people but how many breeds such as the Malamute do you see daily...for me it is a very rare occasion and that to me shows that for the most part the good breeders are doing a really good job. Why is that so funny to think that the same can't be done for the Czechoslovakian and or Saarloos Wolfdogs??

Lovely photo and fascinating insight - thank you.

I think it's the only way. There are too many know it all's out there with no real information.

yes it is nice to hear from people who actually have the dog and can speak from personal experience rather than relying on hearsay.
They are lovely looking dogs, just a pity we aren't allowed them over here like Mys says.

Yes.
Yes because of the legislation and paperwork required. Yes because people can and do shout out loud about wolfdogs possibly being in this country.

Yes there is a market for wolfdogs, I'm not naive or stupid...BUT I don't give a monkeys if people are naive enough not to research their breed properly and get conned. Yes, it's awful for the dogs, totally, but that would continue to happen on a larger scale if they were legal here as domestic pets.
Responsible owners will not get these dogs until they are legal as domestic animals.

NO, I think the fact that they are called wolf dogs and have quite a high wolf content makes them appealing. Do I think that most of the people I'm concerned about care about/watch Crufts...ummm, NO.So no, I don't think they would become less appealing.

Sometimes Mys, to be honest, when I see what I do out and about, sometimes I think just that...
Animal cruelty is appalling and if I can stop any animal suffering I will do my utmost to do it, particularly of course, those animals and breeds I love. I am not trying to live in a perfect world at all. Far from it. I am trying to prevent cruelty from hard nuts who have no idea, yes.

To be honest, yes dogs from my chosen breed suffer, largely with the BC's for innumerable reasons, with flatties, less so as they are less well known and aren't that appealing to hard nuts or to people who don't know dogs too well as they've never heard of them, but yes they are abused, especially, as I said BC's. That has nothibng at all to do with introsucing a new breed, as you say, plenty of dogs are being abused here, so why introduce more? Especially of a breed that will be particularly open to abuse.

Actually I'm seeing more and more huskys and 'wolf'type dogs around MYs...and they ain't generally with people I would call responsible.
So there are fantastic breeders out there...yes, there are also back street breeders and they would have a field day.


We won't ever agree on this, you want these dogs introduced and would like to own one. To be honest, I don't much care either way as I wouldn't want one, as beautiful as they are, for a massive number of reasons.
My main argument has always boiled down to 2 things...the ethics of breeding with wolves in the first place and the fact that these beautiful dogs are perfect prey for the idiots who think owning a 'wolf' dog would make 'em 'ard. Yes, dogs will be abused, sadly, dogs of all breeds BUT some are much more vulnerable to it than others ( if this was a discussion thread about a new type of fighting breed I'd be saying the same thing), knowing the dogs are vulnerable to it (more so than other breeds) makes me think it's unfair to introduce them.
That's my opinion,you don't have to agree and won't, that's fine, but hopefully the priority for everyone on here is the dogs welfare and well being. They are beautiful.

Mys, I am hoping that this isn't directed at me. I've read up on the breed with interest, I have some idea of what I'm talking about, I know about backstreet breeders and hardnuts cos I come across them on a daily basis. I'm allowed an opinion without it bsing dismissed in this way. Hoping it wasn't aimed at me...:-( I've certainly never claimed to be a know it all and apologise if that's how I come across)>

noooooo the paragraph from the link LS posted and that Mirkawolf refered to actually provoked my comment...you haven't tried to say you know anything about temprement and have shown concern about welfare that is good so no worries...

On policing rules being followed - anyone with an unlicensed dog and a neighbour is vulnerable and risking euthanasia of their 'wolf-dog'.

It wouldn't suprise me at all if neighbours complaining/reporting these lovely dogs do most of the policing. Particularly if they are afraid of dogs or have small children. They could think it was a wolf.

Again though, am just dipping in and out here. I really would love one because I've always been fascinated by wolves. However, even if I could have one today, I probably wouldn't take it as I don't think I have enough experience training to feel responsible for one.

But my pup and I are going to classes now and he's so quick learning - I actually feel the classes are more to train me than him

I work at home and he has come over a lot and sat perfectly straight looking alert and getting my attention because he wants a training session. He's so damn cute it's hard to resist him, but I do for both our sakes.

We have an odd 'pack' here. Lab from a puppy farmer (naiave at the time). Lab x from a rescue centre when he was 18 months old, staffordshire cross we inherited when my father-in-law died recently and our new NI pup. Not quite sure where we'd fit a 'wolf-dog' barely room for us on the bed as it is - but we're thinking of buying them their own double bed.

For those interested in animal welfare. 19 September is Take Your Dog to Work Day - it's organised by the Blue Cross to raise funds.

If you were not aware of it you can get details from http://www.takeyourdogtoworkday.co.uk/web/site/TYDTWD/tydtwd_home.asp

Thanks Mys...I was hoping not!;-)

Hello
I am from Czech Republic and I am a veterinary surgeon. I only want to send some picture that can show you how unsuitable family dog the CWS is.
You can see my youngest child, my son Vojtech (4 years) with our male CSW Lucky(3,5 years)



And now you can see why it is necessaryto keep the CSW in a cage.