can someone explaine the breed standard of NI {type} dogs to me,, Discussions

TBH Shona, I've forgotten whether the standard says they should or shouldn't have a sickle tail :?

standard is on post 26 x ;-)

Pasterns upright, but flexible...anyone ?

Yes thats a toughie too, because all three originating breeds have slightly sloping pasterns from the side, but obviously striaght from the front, so do they mean straight upright, because if so, I think might be sightly impossible :? anyone else ?

Thanks hun, just had a look back.

Ok it says 'Tail Bushy' :? That doesn't say up or down, but it does say a gay tail is a fault !

It also says could have 5 toes on rear feet !

I read a gay tail is acceptable as long as its during excitment or play ?

Well upright pasterns rules out a huge number of NI's as many have pasterns like a GSD, which are slighly sloping or angulated. I pointed this out in the critique section. flexible? I should hope so, arent all dogs pasterns flexible?

Slope of pastern tends to go along with the general construction of the dog... a breed with strong angulation of forehand and hindquarters eg GSD will also have a more pronounced slope to the pastern, and a less angulated one such as the Shiba, will have more upright pasterns. I don't know if all standards comply with this but they should.

This brings to the fore one of the more serious flaws in the NI standard. It asks for moderate slope of shoulder (no memtion of upper arm) and "good" rear angulation. This to me implies stronger angulation in the rear than the fore ... not good if you want a dog that can move efficiently.

So, if moderate angulation is called for in the front, then the pasterns should also be moderately sloping... and flexible of course.

No it does not say a 'gay' tail is acceptable, it says :

Lifted, is not 'gay', so a curly or gay tail would still be a fault.

I have found it is very difficult to visualise a dog from this standard, there are too many words like medium, slightly, fairly, moderately and phrases such as not too broad, not too large (compared with what?)

There are one or two terms used which I do not understand it the context they are used, such as, well-defined nape.

The dog is required to be athletic but from the standard not balanced as the shoulders are moderately sloping and the pasterns are upright but the hind assemble calls for good angulations and short hocks.

The tail and coat descriptions are difficult to understand and that given could be misleading.

In a UK KC standard faults are not listed but a note is added about normal testicles being present.

Some important information is not included, no mention of stop or teeth, and I personally find it imprecise and not very helpful and wonder if those trying to breed to it do as well.

Can I ask if the NI standard was based on one Dog? If so, or if it were several, can the owners of such Dogs post a photo, it will help a lot to visualise the whole animal.
Dawn.

On the tail thing, as far as I was aware (and correct me if I am wrong):-

Correct tail and gay tail:


1: Gay
2: Sickle
3: Curled
4: Lowered


Like Shona, i'm not really used to tails.

Sorry to but in but I am trying to learn, terminology more than anything.
Please what is pasterns?
Thanks in advance

Pasterns are the bit between the back of the front pad/foot and the stopper pad at the back of the leg.

As seen here, this breed (Border Terrier) has upright pasterns.


If you look at the same place in a german Shepherd, you will see them sloping, like this:


The NI is supposed to have straight or upright pasterns, but many have sloping pasterns.


Hope that helps.

Thanks for that Dawn.

Dawn has shown the front pasterns, the rear pasterns are between the hock joint and the foot.




Edit: Blimey, that looks like chicken legs or something.... here's the rest of the dog to show he is real. An American Indian Dog

Nice looking dog, tell this ignorant woman is it a wild dog or a developed breed?

Whilst we are doing research can someone explain what I should be looking for if the standard calls for a well-defined nape

Pita, some fascinating reading here on American Indian dogs, lots of history and breed foundation info

http://www.indiandogs.com/

I have`nt read all of it myself yet but looks, [ so far ], to be a breed looked after through highly ethical motives for the breed and great care with lines etc, at least as far as the originators go anyway but will need to read more though to see if the main breed `protectors` are as good they seem on the surface

Thanks Patch must take a look at that if I can find the time, certainly is a nicely balanced dog, just wish it would put it's foot down

Just taken a quick look unfortunatly most do not look nearly as good at the one in Pods post, never mind will go back and have a read when I can.

I haven't read any of the latest stuff on them but I was in touch with the chap who 'resurrected' the breed a few years ago. I couldn't find anywhere that actually said that any of the founder dogs were known to be true Indian dogs, just that they greatly resembled them.

I took this photo on a visit to a breeder in Wales ~10 years ago. Truely magnificent dog... so fit and agile and perfect movement. I do have more photos, but going OT here. I could start another thread if anyone is interested.