Border collie v working sheep dog Working Dogs

Nope still can't see any evidence of merling. Not disagreeing with Strain, he's obviously seen something I haven't:?

Both look to me to be typical sw exteme whites which also produces a high incidence of colour related deafness.

I don't think routine Merle DNA testing is really necessary, just advisable where cryptic merle could occur ie in merle x sable breedings. And ideally merle x merle should never happen so there should be no need to to id homozygous merles but as we know it does, and in breeds like the Great Dane it is routinely done.

Thanks for that Patch, I was about to ask! So it wasn't the dog I thought :? - although if they are all rescues, you don't know what background they have come from - so I could be right as well, we just don't know it

There is a Merle BC list, if either of you are interested.

Sorry Moobli ;-) ;-) but what I know about them is :

A, [ my friends collie ] I went with her when she went to see him for the first time, [ thought he would be a good red herring ],

B, is from Ireland [ her original owners were tracked down by her rescuers so a lot is known there ], then she went to a well know collie rescue who certainly know their stuff ;-)

C, his full history and details were given to the rescue,

D, his full history [ and papers ] were given to the rescue. Interestingly, he was recognised as proginy of his sire by a man who knew the owner well, when he bumped into us at a show several hundred miles from his place of origin. I saw him looking my lad up and down a lot which made me uneasy at the time but then he came over to ask if he was definately right and the rescue owners confirmed he was indeed correct [ I was on a rescue stall with them at the show where it happened ].

E`s full history is known by me directly - I knew the people [ aka morons ! ], that she was with before me, when they first got her, and knew where they got her from.

I was a volunteer for a few years for the rescue which C and D came from btw which is how come I know so much about these two boys ].

Not all rescue dogs are complete unknowns ;-) ;-)

Out of interest, which dog did you think it was ?

Do you mean HerdingK9Color ? Its the only one I can think of offhand, [ a very quiet list iirc ?? ], having lost all my bookmarks, [ gutted, I had some cracking links ].

I am trying to rebuild my reference stuff so if you have an url if its not that one, you would be doing me a big favour, pretty please

Dog A Oh well

Not allowed to post links to other chat groups on here, but if you check out the corriedhu sheepdogs website there are links at the end of the pages on there

He didnt just have pics to go from at the time ;-)
Given how difficult it is to tell from looks alone, what were you looking for particularly ? Maybe something which does not show up well on the pics themselves ? [ I`m not a very good photographer for angles, lighting etc ], but I have the dogs in front of me if thats any help

His `mum` would be chuffed that he was thought to be a `posh dog`

Brill, thank you so much

edited to add, I might find the links you mention if I can stop looking at the fantastic pics of the dogs working

I prefer the less specialized (in terms of breeds) lists as I'm on far too many genetics lists already. HerdingK9color [EDIT the url. Oops sorry ] is probably the most specialist one I'm on but if the BC one is particularly good, I would be interested thanks.

Fisrtly merling in the coat. The flecking seen in your two is typical of the dominant ticking gene or age related greying in the second one. But if there is any merle on any other part of the body, that's of course conclusive of single or double merle.

Also more obvious skin patches lacking pigment. Have a look at Jen's merle boys. The butterfly nose is typical of merle. It can occur in other types of white, but more common in merle (single or double, but moreso in double). Homozygous merles typically are more lacking in skin pigment than is shown in these photos.

Also blue, or blue flecking in the eye. Again can occur in other colours but more common in merles.

Been looking for a very good website on this, by CA Sharp in Australian Shepherd, but it seems to be down just now.

Defa [ D ] has merling on his rump and shoulder. Silk has it in her tail, and a small patch behind her withers, [ not just flecking ]. If you saw them in front of you it would be much clearer to see.

That can change though. This was C`s nose a couple of years ago :



Now his nose is completely black on the outside [ still pink in the nostrils ]. Defa`s did have small pink spotting and a small pink blotch but those have gone as well [ also still pink inside though ]. Age related perhaps ?

Common yes but not exclusive.

Aussies are not necessarily a good comparrison though, with so much outcrossing and suchlike ? [ Not that I have done any research on comparrisons so could well be, and probably am, completely wrong ! ].

Then there is what breeders get up to in the US, deliberately breeding for white in Rough collies for instance, and at one time [ dont know if its still the case these days ] deliberately breeding all white BC`s, so through the years, with dogs being sent back and forth across the pond then bred from, much has been done to mess up the BC breed which causes all sorts of anomilies such as brown eyed MMs for instance !
Please do remember, the one you seem to be doubting the most is known to be MM from his breeding which is absolutely catagorically 100% known. He is MM from nose to tail.

If it really is merle then yes it is, but I haven't seen it

Yep, it's normal for pink patches to colour in a bit, also the white markings in the hair in places eg a white blaze on a puppy will often get narrower as he grows. This is because pigment cell migration isn't complete at birth and continues afterwards, sometimes for years.

Aussies are quite similar really but the merle gene is the same in all breeds so subject to the same effects. Other genes though do alter the expression eg dapple in Daxies, harlequin in Danes.

I know, this is awful, poor dogs.

Ah...! The only way (apart from DNA testing) you could be sure he is MM is if both his parents are absolutely, definitely homozygous merles too. In this case the whole litter would be also. Honestly, I can't see anyone deliberately doing this breeding apart from as an experiment maybe.

If, as I suspect, he is from two normal heterozygous merle (Mm) parents, He will have just a 25% chance of being MM. The ratio of probability is 1:2:1 for MM:Mm:mm

Ok, if he does have two normal merle (Mm) parents this does increase his chances of being MM based on observation alone, and particularly if they are normally marked ie not huge amounts of white.

Brilliant website isn't it? The photos of the dogs working are amazing

I am finding this conversation a real revelation. Genetics are very interesting!

now I'm lost

I'm not good at explanations but I'll try

When I first tried to guess if he was double merle MM I was basing it purely on obsevation of his pigment in the photos assuming his parentage was unknown. Now that I know he has two merle parents, there is a 25% chance that he is MM from his breeding, so increasing the odds in my opinion, since merle is not that common in the breed.

The amount of white on his parents is significant because he has a lot of white himself. If he is MM, then this will explain his white as the MM combination has the effect of removing pigment from the coat and skin (hence the associated link with deafness). If he is not MM then his white has to come from somewhere and if his parents are normal merles Mm with a lot of white, this would explain it without the need for him to be MM.

But, since extreme white is a recessive, two parents without much white can also produce pups with a lot of white without merle being involved at all, so this is only a possible indication of the genes involved.

Hope that makes some sense...I think I've confused myself

I am looking at it right now while they are snoozing at my feet ;-)

It took Willows nose eight years to fill in from pink bits to black solid, but the change was sudden to the point of me panicking that something was wrong

Danes and their colours is the most recent merling / genetic info which I have been looking at, but I have more to look at for comparrisons yet, and looking at relation to deafness in them [ my main reason for my interest in the whole thing funnily enough ].

This will probably anger you as much as it did me - yes it was deliberate...
Its why I get so angry about the KC doing nothing ie them not refusing to register litters of merle to merle matings. When there are numpties doing it deliberately, how many more are doing it accidentally with no idea of the ramifications ?
So many breeding them think no further than how easy it will be to sell such pretty pups because, lets face it, they are exceptionally beautiful.

Have answered this above I think.

As if it wasnt irresponsible enough, my lad was sold to a family with small kids and who lived in a housing estate - doesnt get much worse than that for a thoroughly worky dog like him
Btw, they had him for a year and did not realise he was deaf - they thought he was just unruly and ignorant.... Ho hum !!!

So glad you are finding it of interest
It can become an obsession as well which I know from experience

That's unbelievable it was deliberate! What a sad start to life and what a lucky boy now. Which one is this BTW?