Border collie v working sheep dog Working Dogs

That's footie ball number 4 since the world cup lolol the first one just appeared

Are you still hoping to herd with Rjj at some point in the future?

I have the chance to go and run a friend's trained sheepdogs for experience, so I am really excited about that.

I'm not sure whether or not I can make any useful contribution to this thread or not, but here goes, anyway!

My Boys were born on a farm, of working parents. They have no pedigrees and are registered only at the vet's. Locals told me that dog senior (Kali) would have made a good worker, and, over the years, I've had some substantial offers for him (but you don't sell your best mate!) from farmers. Snorri-dog is, however, a complete wimp (and has one or two other problems) and would never have made a career on a farm. Both have made the transition to pet-hood very well. Kali had to be trained to ignore sheep (farmers tend to disapprove of unauthorised visits from umtrained dogs!), just in case he attempted to go back to his roots without permission, as he does have a liking for chasing things! Snorri-dog is more interested in running away

My first BC was a rescue: we never knew his origins, although he looked far more like a "designer" BC and never showed any inclination towards anything resembling work.

Although the KC doesn't agree with me, I think of them as Border Collies, not as WSDs!

Snorri

I need to find a nice local shepherd 1st;-)

You ALWAYS make a useful contribution Snorri

I have to say I agree with you. I call my pupster a border collie, he was advertised in the Farmers Guardian as a border collie and, as Patch said in an earlier post, a border collie is a border collie is a border collie

Hmm yes, not always easy to find ;-) You could always splash out and have a holiday at the Shepherd's Barn at Quernmore, Lancaster You can combine a holiday with sheepdog tuition. And, no, I am not on commission

My Kali was advertised in "The Orcadian" (the local bumwiper) as a "working collie pup", although, when I went to pick him, it must have been obvious that there was no way I wanted him for work!

I will always remember that day! Negotiating with the farmer (Robert) was like going to a job interview - exactly as it should be, IMO - it was very much "Are you good enough for one of my dogs?", although the words were never spoken.

I said the pup would be a pet, and that my farmer neighbours would probably think it was a waste of a good dog. What Robert said surprised me at the time, but was very true: "If he gives you pleasure, he can never be a waste."

Kali cost me the princely sum of £25: he still ranks as the best £25 I've ever spent.

(By the time I got Snorri-dog, inflation had hit - he was a whole £35!). By this time, Robert was well aware of how Kali had been treated: buying Snorri was (quote) "Nae problem!"

Snorri

LOL I know the Longton's very well lol some from before they were born;-) stayed there on many occassions for local trials etc

I would need to be able to get him sheep work every day not just as & when :-(

Ahh well you will recognise the fella in the pics with Moss then ;-) Could you not rent a field a buy a few sheep? This may be my next course of action, depending on how serious I get.

I'm with you on this Snorri ....and more to the point, the International Sheep Dog Society refers to them as Border Collies. But I suppose the KC had to make some identifiable distinction between dogs registered on the breed and activity registers. Just a shame that they chose to call the show dogs Border Collies.

A quick look through the ISDS website, I see they don't accept KC registered dogs without ISDS (or other recognised Sheepdog body) parentage into their studbook.

http://www.isds.org.uk/index.htm

We LOVE work - we could watch it all day...........



Snorri

Couldn't agree more Pod. That settles it for me, the ISDS are the authority on collies NOT the KC!

Haha love it Snorri!

Classic

Not as simple as that To train a young dog needs ewes that will move but that haven't been over or under dogged. I've not got the time or money at present

Before I forget [ you guys probably already have anyway ]

Of the dogs in the pics :




A : Breed Faults - None
Traits for sheep - None

B : Breed Faults - White, deaf [ double merle ]
Traits for sheep - None

C : Breed Faults - white, deaf [ double merle ], has CEA
Traits for sheep - none

D : Breed Faults - white, deaf [ double merle ]
Traits for sheep - oodles and oodles

E : Breed Faults - None
Traits for sheep - terrified of them

Only one of them has what it takes to have been an actual sheep-working dog.

In the KC eyes, those which could not work a sheep any more than they could fly to the moon without a space ship are ` Working Sheep Dogs`.

The one with the ability to work sheep is the one handed in with KC papers / Pedigree and therefore `acceptable` in their eyes - yes, even with such bad breeding in terms of being a double merle, and with serious breed faults - as a `real BC`.

However, as the rescue he came from retains all formal paperwork / pedigree`s to protect their dogs from those who would breed from their dogs because of the lines, in his original ownership he was a BC but in my ownership he is a WSD according to the KC.

I can confirm, he did not undergo a metamorphosis in to anything else when I got him, he was born a BC and to this day is still a BC, whether the KC like it or not ;-)

The KC ethos and myself do not see eye to eye on this as you can probably tell :smt084

Interesting Patch!

The ones you say are double merles..... do you have any close up shots of the heads? I don't see any evidence of this on B & D especially but the photos don't give much away.

Bearing in mind its virtually impossible to tell a double merle on appearance alone ;-)

D`s parentage [ and theirs, and theirs etc ] are known, plus though brown eyed, he does have the typical very small MM eyes, [ which his vet picked up on straightaway ], as well as the deafness.

B`s overall appearance is not helped by her suffering severe malnutrition during her primary growing months which my vet feels has caused her to retain a permanent `junior puppy-like` appearance, which causes some people to doubt that she is full collie, however again with the deafness, her colouring, and merling where it does appear, [ and the fact that I have a lifetimes experience in Collies ], there is no doubt that she is MM.

With C and D, I did contact George Strain in the US directly when I got them, and while I dont agree with his belief that deaf dogs should be destroyed, he does know his stuff on genetics and he is in no doubt whatsoever about them being MM.

I will be searching through my pics as soon as I have posted this so I will be back when I find some good close-ups for you, not that it will help tell much re MM, but as you asked nicely

Thanks Patch This is something I have a particular interest in.

The Merle locus has now been sequenced so if there was ever any doubt, it could be verified by DNA, though not sure if there is a commercial test up and running yet as it's a very recent one.

Edit: yes just had a look and there is a test - http://www.genmarkag.com/home_companion.php

I read a while back that it was being researched - thanx for the up to date link [ I lost all mine when stoopid PC was reformatted cos I couldnt find a way to save all my bookmarks beforehand ].
Hopefully it will become widely and readily available in the UK - I`d like to see breeders have to routinely test for it actually, but I know the unscrupulous wont, any more than they test for anything else :-(

The following pics are some which I already have on the PC [ I have more on discs but hopefully these are ok ]. Some I had to crop from larger pics so I hope they are clear enough size/pixel wise. I was baffled as I have taken lots of close-ups recently then I realised they are on my phone and I have no idea how to transfer them to the pc

Dog B [ Silk ]





Dog D [ Defa ]



[ this one below was taken just after he had an op so he was still a bit dopey :smt049