Border collie v working sheep dog Working Dogs

This topic is one of my major bugbears.

A border collie is a border collie is a border collie. There is no such separate `breed` as a Working Sheep Dog.
Types ? yes.
Traits ? Yes.
But genetically, no, they are the same thing, all from four main lines historically, which themselves come from one original strain, and all Border Collies from the first recognised breeding.
KC papers does not change a dogs genetics no matter how much the snobbery tries to make it so.

One of the five Border Collies in the following pics is a papered pedigree, the others are without papers.

Which is which ?

Hi Patch

Are we not though seeing different types emerging in this breed with a divergence between the show bred ones and working?

The WSDs I see round here working sheep and also the ones used in agility, are taller, less coat (often shortcoated) and with less angulation. All attirbutes that go to make the breed supreme at his job I would think.

I know there has been an influence from NZ and Oz in the show lines and these tend to be shorter on the leg with more angulation and are usually very fluffy coated. Is there much exchange in bloodlines between these or are we going to see two very distinct types becoming establishes, as in some of the gundog breeds eg?

There are different looks yes, but they are still all Border Collies ;-)
I have to be honest, I felt the worst possible thing to happen to the breed was its acceptance in the conformation ring. It has resulted in what I consider `clone dogs` when the beauty of the breed for me, [ aside from the brains and character which is primary ], has always been the diversity of looks, builds, sizes, coat lengths, and colours.
I also fear that show lines will eventually lose the worky/quick thinking/always two steps ahead of a human type character which is what a Collie is all about in the first place and just [ it seems to me anyway ], for the sake of an `acceptable one type` show appearance to make it easier for Judges to compare them in the ring :-(

I don't think it's about classing them as "seperate" breeds, but acknowledging the differences between the two.

For me a BC is a KC regd dog with a more "pet" type temperament. A WSD can be either KC regd or not, but bred with purely working in mind.

They are definitely the same breed, but generally bred for different reasons.

As far as the KC is concerned, the difference is a bit of paper, nothing more. Not having that bit of paper is the difference between one collie being `allowed` to compete in some major agility competitions when another without the paper is not allowed even if it might be better at it. That, to me, is nothing but elitist snobbery. It keeps rescued unpapered collies out no matter how good they may be, for no good reason whatsoever [ all dogs should be able to qualify imo, whether collies, labs, crossbreeds, whatever, if they are the best of the best, a bit of paper should not be what matters !! ].
A Border COllie is a Border Collie. Some are worky, some are not, but they are still the same breed !
Do you know which one on the pics is the pedigree papered dog ? ;-)

I think that's a whole other debate!

I don't think anyone could say for sure (as both BCs and WSD can be regd) let alone from someone like myself who has no BC experience whatsoever. I just know which ones like to bite me!

I believe at the present time, the KC allows registration of ISDS dogs into the breed register so allowing new bloodlines to be added. If this was to change and the stud book closed, we would have a situation where the two would effectively become separate breeds with separate registries. Does the ISDS allow registration of KC registered BCs that don't have ISDS parentage?

I had no idea that was the case. That's outrageous!

I don't think it's possible to pick out one in a small group like this as, as you say, they could all have the same bloodlines anyway.... but, I bet if you were shown a random large group of ISDS WSDs compared with a similar group of KC Border Collies of show breeding, there would be a noticable difference in type.

By papered dog, do you mean KC, Patch?

I have a 5 generation pedigree and a certificate for my collie, he is ISDS registered - so still papered?

I would say the dog with a KC registration is the dog sitting by the Christmas tree? I am fairly new to the breed though, so could be completely wrong! The second pic looks more collie x?

I think collies will go the way of the english springer spaniel (well, they already have done) - the working (ISDS and unregistered) type will be worky, quick and intelligent, come in all kinds of shapes and sizes etc and the KC registered will be fluffy, nice looking dogs but without the worky ethic. I don't think they should become a different breed as such, but I do believe there are two very different strains.

However, then you have agility, flyball and obedience dogs thrown into the mix - from a quick search, it would appear these dogs come from a mix of both ISDS and KC dogs but are now bred solely for one sport or another, so what should these be classed as? Collies, WSDs or something completely different?

Hi Moobli, sorry yes, its the KC side I get annoyed about - I am no fan of the KC for many reasons, this aspect is just one of them :smt005

They are all collies, no crosses - one of the things I love about the breed, all those in the pics have completely different looks and builds to each other, but they all have the brains collies are so renowned for ;-) :smt049
Not saying which is the one with a KC pedigree yet - I`ll let a few more people ponder on it first :smt003

They should all be classed as what they are - Border Collies ;-)
Being a working dog pertains to them doing a `job`, be it herding, agility, SAR, or whatever, but it does not change their genetics and does not make them a different breed

I agree with you Patch.

One small bugbear of my own is when people call an agility/obedience/flyball dog a "working" dog. I would call them sport dogs. In my eyes, a working dog is a dog that earns his keep, and in the case of collies that would usually be a sheep dog, a cow dog or in the line of SAR etc.

And theres me including agility as a `job` :smt005

Just to clarify, I tend to consider a collies `job` in a broader sense, as its prefered activity which provides the dog with the brain work which so many crave.
When one of the dogs in the pics is doing an SAR type exercise its not because she does SAR as a job, but it enables her to use her instincts and intelligence for an activity which she has a great aptitude for.
Another in the pics would have made a good sniffer dog. Its what he has his aptitude for so its what I offer him the opportunity to do with me.
Three in the pics are agility lovers, again because they love the cerebral element so thats what they get to do.

So while none in the pics are working for a living, they are the type who live to work, if you see what I mean. Whenever I may use the term ` a worky dog`, they are in that catagory [ to me ] as opposed to an actual working dog upon which lives or livelihoods are dependant or benefitted by.
When you see me use the term `working` as I did when including agility, its just me looking at it from the perspective of the dog doing an activity worthwhile to the dog which requires brain usage and is as much about being part of a team with the handler as a shepherds dog is with the shepherd and the SAR dog is to its handler, so please dont cringe too much when I say things like that

no worries, I won't cringe.

I totally see where you are coming from, but have heard people say things like "my dogs are working dogs and therefore ...", and yet what they actually mean is they compete in agility or obedience. I am all for collie owners working their dog's brain in whichever activity the dog enjoys I am hoping to do some agility/flyball with my own collie, he has also had herding lessons and I hope to continue with that later this year - and even if I do ever manage to get him to nursery trial level, I still won't consider him a "working dog" as such.

One of my dogs does qualify as a working dog in one respect I would say, as hearing dog to my deaf dogs - alerts them to things, leads them where I direct to, gets their attention for me at distance when needed, that sort of thing [ all on cue`s ], even that isnt considered a `proper` job by many I daresay, but its hugely beneficial for us as a unit

If you do take up agility and/or flyball with your lad, please do post piccies, and if you have any herding pics please post those too - I love seeing such pics and I`m sure lots of others here would too. After my father left the airforce, where we moved to meant I grew up in a farming area where most of my friends parents had working collies, [ actual working dogs I mean ], which I got to see working a great deal, and so many years on I still find them magical and awesome when doing their thang :smt049 :smt026

My boy :smt049

My boy

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:mini: :mini: :mini: :mini: :mini: :mini: :mini:

Poetry in motion :smt007 :smt007 :smt007
Love these two pics in particular, thank you so much, they gave me that lovely warm fuzzy feeling :smt041

Super pics, what a handsome lad, and he knows how to have fun thats for sure

This pic gave me a much needed chuckle - rag that ball good and proper, lad :smt023 :smt023

Thank you for posting his pics :smt003

Awww thanks Glad you like them.

aww what gorgeous babes you both have and wonderful pics

Rjj looks great Dyane.