Bombproof GSDs? Discussions

yep, and for some reason i like that!

i got a real kick out of lady doing well in WT and she was a pup from an abandoned litter, with max it's kinda the same, i get a real kick out of him doing well

so, yes, you have to work harder, but that then leads to a great sense of achievement

It is a shame. GSDs do, in general, still have a bit of a bad reputation with the general public and that must be for a reason. I have also had encounters with loose GSDs as you have, and I have heard many stories from other dog owners who say their dogs don't like the breed because they have been attacked, bullied, chased etc etc.

I have also heard, just recently, a few people say they would like a GSD but wouldn't know where to start to find one with a good temperament and so are put off.

Was the second stud dog a dog of questionable temperament?
From what you have said, do you believe that nurture (ie the socialisation) is as important as the nature (ie the genetics)?

I used to dream of taking my dog to the pub with me, where she would lie at my feet, and enjoy being fussed by the locals. She did enjoy it as a pup but wasn't keen as an adult, and even though I took her a few times she clearly didn't enjoy the experience, so I had to give up on the idea and leave her in the car after walk when we went to the pub.

Afterwards I did wonder why I had forced her into a situation on a few occasions when she was clearly not happy.

She was

Totally agree. For me, temperament is right up there with health, in fact it is probably even more important.

It sounds as though you have been really lucky or, as you say, your handling of the dogs has made a real difference.

My experience with the English show line was good too, as I used to walk some of these dogs when I was a child and they all had great temperaments from what I can remember.

It is great when you can get a dog really focused on work so he forgets everything around him. The more you work him around other dogs, the more he should relax in that environment.

Some of our working collies would be a nightmare in a pet home in terms of being far from bombproof in terms of a pet dog, yet if they were working sheep they would ignore everything else.

Absolutely

That is a very good question!

I could never understand people taking their dogs to busy shopping centres, tying them up outside with everyone pawing and approaching them. Most dogs hated this. I am sure they would have been happier left at home.

I've lived in busy seaside towns where the main street is cobbled and narrow and half the pedestrians have to walk in the road because it is so busy and still people will try to push and squirm through with a big dog on a lead - keeping the lead about 6 inches long so they can drag it and keep it close. St Ives was a point in case and also Market Jew St in Penzance.

I've had what I'd call one really bombproof GSD - old Jenny, my old Sally's mum. What a dog. Sally will always hold a special place in my heart - I still think about her most days and EVERY TIME I come on this forum and every time I see another GSD. I wouldn't have described her as totally bombproof - she was terrified of loud fireworks and would tear round the house. And she always seemed a bit 'wary' to me of people who were quite obviously 'scared of her' (you know, flinching away, eyes wide, sharp intake of breath! Or gingerly tiptoeing round her muttering does she bite does she bite!)

I choose the places I walk my dog primarily for her enjoyment but try to go where it's nice for us both. I'd rather drive to somewhere it was nice than to just be able to walk to somewhere my dog was going to get stressed.

yes, that is how I am teaching him coping strategies

this thread got me thinking about the dog's drives

(not sure what you think about the site, but there is a scoring mechanism on volhard)

max has very high pack drive along with fight drive, prey drive is not far behind, flight is low

i would imagine most gsd's have high pack drive, it's probably why we like them so much.

and it's likely that the high defense drive causes the dog to not be bombproof, so i wonder if we work hard enough on that drive for the dog to cope well with it. i guess a lot of the training we do are outlets for pack and prey drive?

Wouldn't say it was my handling lol. I think that today many people are worried about the 'reputation' of GSDs and try too hard sometimes.

Sometimes their anxieties transfer to their dogs and, of course, they also get their dogs without checking too much into the parents background and then get told on forums and owners from 'the other side' whichever one it is, that they risk having a nasty, flaky and unpredictable dog, this can't help with their confidence in meeting people and other dogs, waiting for the 'experts' premonition to come to pass

It can't help if people are unsure about their dogs.

Ah drives………………………

Well the great Konrad Lorenz said there were the BIG 4 when it came to drives

Food Acquisition
Aggression
Reproduction
Flight

Which were complexes ie they could be further subdivided, according to Prof Eugen Seiferle into hunting, prey, searching, tracking, bring, play, pack, movement, guard, flight, defence (fight).

It is, as they say, all about "balance"

I would consider Molly ALMOST bomb-proof. She is polite, well-mannered and friendly with other dogs, she is comfortable to be anywhere (as long as she's with me or OH). She is not fazed by loud noises or unusual sights and she is friendly and gentle with children.

However, she is aloof with adult strangers. No aggression, she just completely ignores people she doesn't know and will duck out of their way if they attempt to pet her. I've had a comment passed to me on the lines of 'Oh, she's not very friendly is she'. I just answered by saying 'She doesn't appreciate being fondled by strangers any more than you would'.
I'd consider her a well-rounded young dog. I'll never know if it's down to how we've raised her or her genetics. This will never be known as she was rescued.

Out of my friends 3 family GSDs:

Roxy - Totally 100% bomb proof. A little aloof, but trustworthy and good nerves.

Doobs - Can be dog aggressive, nervous of the vets, poor health.
(both those dogs are from the same breeder, same upbringing)

Mishka: Seems full of confidence, far higher drive then the others but early days yet.
(same upbringing different breeder)

I know this may not be a popular post. But I thought I would come in as the other side. So to speak. GSD's are the one breed to me, which are other people's dogs. Their not 'my dogs'. I've been one of the people who have been unfornate with my experiences of them. But I believe that a lot of this has to do with the fact that they have the looks they do. In that they are a stunning breed. A breed that everyone seems to be able to identify. Whether they are a doggy person or not. Its a reason that I think allows BYB and well, any dodgy breeder, a good sized market. Allowing them to sell their dogs easier then some other breeds. That aren't as popular, that aren't as easy for the GP to think they know the breed. I think that's why Labs have the same problem. Too many breeders, not enough good ones. And too many 'bad' dogs being bred. Dogs that don't have the right temperment, but ones that because people 'know' the breed. They feel they will make good pets, without putting into consideration the individual breeding. Coz all dogs of the same breed are the same. Aren't they?

To me personally I am a bit less trusting of them then other breeds. Again this goes down to the people breeding them. I think the first memory of dogs I have is a GSD breeder, I wont go into the details. But a bitch and her pups went from my house. But there was not enough evidence we owned her, as this person was her previous owner. It was sad for me at such a young age, to find out that someone had taken my pet and her babies.

I also have other experiences of them, I've got a scar on my back from the said bitch who went missing. I was use to on a dog walk, having up to seven dogs at a time growing up, being able to run around with the dogs. Walks weren't for walking. This bitch had a few issues. And apparently decided walks were for all her pack to stay together. And it seems decided that she would make sure this happened. Or well I don't know. But she grabbed hold of my back, and a tooth punctured the skin. And come back out below where it went in. I also witnessed another German Shepherd at the time who also had issues. Not like other people approaching his pack. Beings as I grew up opposite a park, this caused issues of him showing aggression if he got into the front garden when I was on the park, and playing with someone else. Which is confusing for a kid to see their dog, who they could put on a lead and drag around the house (once tying him to a bed, playing pretend, and making out I was going into a shop, getting him into a sit and forgetting him. He was found still sat with, well what wasn't really a tied lead). But to have a dog like that, and then see them throwing himself at a fence, shouting and growling, is a tad confusing. And then I remember playing in the garden. Only for said dog to go for my Deerhound, as we were playing. He had serious protective issues. His brothers also put a man in hospital, who they knew since childhood. All because he walked into the garden. Unfornatly with him it became clear that we couldn't handle him. He also bit a person. So my parents sent him to the Army. I think I was seven at this point. Might of been younger. Still remember seeing him in the kitchen with a man in army uniform checking him out.

I did have one heart break GSD though. Silas was amazing. We got him from a gyspy. When we saw him he was living in a horse stable. Surrounded by Horses and Donkeys. He was a gorgeous black and sable. A bit underweight. And needed a bit of TLC. Unfornatly he broke my heart, as he tried to kill all of our cats. Which when we had five. Including two under six months. One just over wasn't really feesable. So he broke my heart by being sent on to another home.

I've also recently had another bite. It was one that I have to be honest, was a bit scary. I knew this dog for a few months. His person had gone out for a while. And someone came to the window. Said dog re-directed aggression to said man onto me. And my arm. I was stuck having to hold him away from me, holding onto his collar to keep him away from my face and body. As I was sat on a couch, and just wait for his person to come back. As he wasn't listening to me. And everytime I went to get up, he would start snarling and biting again. Which when at that point he's face level isn't a nice place to be in. Luckily it was only a few mins before his person come back in. And I know it was re-directed aggression. And I know there was reasons that the others bit. But I was too young to understand. And now any memorys of these behaviours have been twisted, by things looking even more scary when your young. But the ones at work to me, aren't bomb proof either. Which is prolly because they come from BYB. But they all seem gobby attention seekers, with behavioural problems that are getting worse. Because we can't provide them with enough physical and mental stimaltion that they need every day. Which is a shame. And the majority who come through do need experienced homes. But the majority of my experiences have taught me that because idiots can own them, the dogs can be dangerous. Because they don't always have the best start in life. Or the best genetics. But to someone else, who has had these experiences they may feel that all the dogs are dangerous. I do try to be objective on them. But there may be some that wont. So that might be a reason that so many people have bad opinions of them. Unfornatly this means that there is more pressure on people with the breed, to show people what they can be. And try to change the opinions, of people like me. Who have had more bad experience then good. Not saying that I think their all bad though. And not that I'm saying that me, or my family were the right people for the breed. And that we did things right. Or know enough to prevent them getting worse

Every single GSD I have owned have been not only bombproof but also high work drive.

I've never owned an English type & would never want to, the only two the family owned were dreadful. one my father's was a multi in bred to Avon Prince of Alumvale & was PTS after a serious attack on my brother, she was only stopped when my bitch grabbed her by her neck & shook her & then pinned her to the ground, she was very typical of the English type of the time(195when their dreadful temperaments were allowed in the breed standard by the wording"noted suspicious of strangers" The other was a bitch by Hendrawen's Syrious Norge was frightened of her own shadow & should never have been bred from-she was my mother's bitch & my mother was determined to breed from her. Fortunately she was persuaded to use a super dog(who was bombproof)Timbervale Secret Alien & due to the bitch needing emergency surgery when the puppies were 3 weeks old the bitch had little contact with the litter, who were weaned early & looked after by my German bred bitch. All the puppies had super temperaments & the one we kept was bombproof-sadly she had to be PTS at a young age with bone cancer

All my dogs have been of pure German breeding & all from working pedigrees.

My Elvis(not named by me but his first owner)was bred by me & he went to a pet home, but I trained & showed him. When he was 7 years of age, his owner was persuaded by his sister in law that ALL "Alsatians" turned nasty when they got to 7 & so he was dumped in a local GSD rescue. His ex owner never realized that the rescue knew who well who the dog was & rang me as soon as he had signed the dog over & left & I collected him asap. He had the most laid-back temperament of any dog let alone GSD I have ever met, he never growled or grumped at all, he was almost a bi colour & was attacked on several occasions by other GSDs with iffy temperaments in obedience & he became the perfect stooge dog. He was my dog of a lifetime & even people who were terrified of GSDs were not frightened of him, he had the most perfect of expressions. He's been gone for over 20 years but I miss him as if it was yesterday

The 2nd stud dog was fine in his temperament & the owner told me he had been used by a police force. The pup we kept is a more intense character probably shows up more because the other 2 are quite chilled (except when they have their balls, which he's not bothered with). Possibly would've been better as an only dog and been given more to do. He's more attached to me though.

Nature vs nurture, has to be genetics. The right type of nurture is important though.

Agree about some of the owners at shows!

My opinion based on my experience is that American's have ruined the GSD in this country. High strung, nervous, dogs with flighty temperaments. Its rare to find a good one. But the good ones are AWESOME which is why I love the breed so much. Its really a shame.