1st & 2nd are full brother & sister part ISDS & part KC(unfortunately including some Antipodean dogs) rough coated 3rd is pure ISDS smoothcoat
cheers mish, i will do should the time ever come gorgeous dogs everyone- though what does Antipodean mean?
That lab was so so so many generations /years ago now i cant believe it still counts, :? :? its in so many of the dogs. Anyone see any lab in mine? well Flynn has that line twice & Mav Once. Flynn i guess is the closest with the lab i think 9 generations ago. Re the epilepsy, a.He will not be used again b. the litter had meningitis when born & one pup died, who knows how this has affected the rest of the pups sadly. I do know his owners however will not risk using him again. c. The mother of the affected litter, had had a litter previously with the dogs half brother (sharing the same suspect line) & all the litter has fine d. i was unaware he had already produced a epileptic, who was that (PM me!;-) )
A WSD is a BC, they are not different breeds, not different `types`, there are many types of BC in terms of build, colour, coat, size but they are still all BCs. The KC are just snobs on this in that a BC without papers is what they call a WSD on activities registration. My two rescued BCs who went into rescue with papers have according to the KC morphed into their fantasy `WSD` classification, well no they have`nt, all my BCs are still as much BCs when they came out of rescue as when they went in WSD should imo be reserved as a reference only to BCs which actual do the job they were born to as a breed, it should be an honoured additional `working title`, not a KC slap in the face to unpapered dogs like some second rate slur.
Here we go again I have spoken at length to members(including the president & secretary) of the ISDS. In their eyes Border Collies are the sheep working dogs that are born in the Border regions of Scotland, England & Wales. Working sheepdogs are sheep working dogs that are bprn anywhere else. They are THE registry for WSD(or BC) Patch when will you learn this. Because you don't have the paperwork for your rescue(s) the KC will not register them as BC. If the KC were to accept any dog that looked like a BC as a BC you could have a complete mongrel included in the BC gene pool. You will never accept this WSD is not derogatory the only person who says it is is er you . It had been an interesting thread upto now
even tho you have been away for a while patch I cant give you reppies for that great post, looks like there aint as many as you talking as much sense well said and welcome back
Gosh - my poor WSD - I truely hope no-one tells him he is a second rate slur! Its very sad that people see it as a detrimental thing. I don't think that was ever intended by anyone - just a way to distiguish between those with papers and those without.
It`s not about which registry is which or which is `the` one, it`s about all dogs of one breed being called by one name. [ Personally I think the KC should butt out of anything to do with BCs but the fact is that the KC are the `umbrella registry` for all breeds ]. Polite as ever, some things never change I know this, however the KC can take a long walk off a short pier on it as far as I`m concerned. What does the activities register have with the breed register in terms of gene pool ? Diddly that`s what. How exactly does a papered dog going into rescue with papers walk out again as a different breed` or suddenly become a mongrel ? Please explain this genetic metamorphosis to me Joedee, I`m all ears.... Nope and I am not the only one who believes the KC use it as derogatory, I don`t know how much clearer I can be that it should be used as a recognised complimentary `title` to BCs which do actually work sheep . Aw shucks, is that your way of saying you`ve missed me
You mean your BC ;-) If the KC had`nt had a big falling out with a past sec of ISDS years ago I might agree with you One breed, one name. A Poodle with or without papers is still called a Poodle. A Lab with or without papers is still called a Lab. A Dalmatian with or without papers is still called a Dalmatian. Do you see where I`m going here..... ;-)
No - I would never call him that - I have no idea what he has in his background - and I am more than happy for him to be called a WSD. Sorry. You'd be amazed at how many people think he is crossed with an ESS because he is red..... Now that would be an insult!!
It dosent actually Bother me, but i do agree with Patch in Principal, Ie Unreg BCs could be put on the act reg as BCs ,thats in no way different as if i found a Goldie, reg it as a GR on the activites, Which i COULD do. No goldie breeders would want to use it would they? What id be up for is for Activites Reg Dogs to be known as thus: WBC (working Border Collie) WGR WGSD WESS etc etc
Well according to the KC a `wsd` is an unpapered BC. If you are not sure if your dog is all BC then he should be referred to as a crossbreed - he is either a BC or he is`nt, but wsd is not a breed of it`s own, it`s a job description ;-) Your lad is either a BC or a crossbreed, he has to be one or t`other ;-)
He looks like a BC - but he is on the activitiys register becasue i am not 100% sure. In the same way that if I got a dog from rescue that looked like a PB goldie I would register it as a goldie - not being 100% sure! Without papers there is no 100% Should I have called him a crossbreed?
You could Put down the goldie as a goldie, & in My opinion you were correct to put this one down as a WS & not a XB. Thats whats wrong with it, every other dog is put down as a proper breed if it looks like one, except the collies
Ah see when I said WSD I meant a dog bred from working stock, ISDS reg or unregistered, and a BC as a show/sport line dog, but still both being BCs... think i see what ripsnorter meant by can of worms now though why is it the KC does this with BCs and not other breeds, seems a bit of a weird thing to do. nice to see you Patch
So my dog who is ISDS reg is a WSD which is fine by me as he wasn't born in the Borders. Interesting thought, what are my two full brother & sister as they are from both KC dogs & ISDS dogs & when I have my litter the mother will be an ISDS bitch(born in Scotland or Wales-but not in the Borders)so will be a WSD & the father will either be Wukee or one of his brothers which would make the puppies ????????? WSD x WSD x BC ????????? However I could use Wukee on a mongrel & register the puppies with the KC as WSD on the activities register & no one would be any wiser because they would look like BC/WSD, of course the genetic background to the mother would be unknown, but I could call her a WSD & have all the DNA tests done for a WSD which she might pass, but then have something from one of the breeds behind her that isn't usually found behind WSD/BC which would be missed(such as Narcolepsy that is in Labradors) & then somewhere down the line one of her offspring is bred to another dog from the same genetic make up & bang you have another genetic condition appearing seemingly from nowhere in WSD. You can register dogs on merit with the ISDS but they do have to be from a known pedigree, in which one or more of the dogs haven't been registered with the ISDS for some reason(such as the breeder not being a member of the ISDS) There is of course a case on record of an ISDS bitch being bred to an ISDS dog & producing a litter, which however when DNA tested, the litter proved not to be by the ISDS dog, I know of one puppy that was registered as an WSD with the KC(wasn't of course eligible for ISDS reg because of unknown background of father) In truth this dog should have been registered as a XB as no one knew who the father was, could have been another collie or a passing Heinz 57 etc etc etc. If this dog had not been virtually blind with CEA the query would have never arisen & a cross breed would have been added to the gene pool of ISDS WSD(KC BC)
Please don't call Goldens "Goldies"-Goldie was a bitch on Blue Peter & is not the shortened version of Golden Retriever. The breed existed long before the Blue Peter dog
