Are Alsations and GSD the same breed? Discussions

The very breed specialists who are in denial.

The ORIGINAL studbook was smuggled out to the States because on the continent it was considered very bad form to admit to the wolf content. So the book was rewritten, but some clever person with vision had the commonsense to preserve the original book for posterity.

Apart from the article written by Ann Dresselhaus that you quoted & which is not from the first edition of Von Stephanitz's book as the first edition published by Anton Kampfe in German, my copy was given to my parents by a German friend, who inherited it from his father & is in German & was published in 1923 & as far as I know is a first German edition(at least the fly page has just the date 1923 on it with no edition number which means there were no previous editions)

I can google as well

I dont have the links just now but I remember when I was doing a course in genetics of dogs and wolves they did state something about some breeds like GSD's as genetically showing that they had more modern introductions of wolf blood than most other breeds


No proof either way when that blood was introduced - just saying what I remember from the course

Does it really matter if there was a bit of added wolf content in GSDs nearly 100 years ago? I bet if it was, it's so diluted now that it doesn't even make a difference - as far as behaviour, temperament, etc. Casper is no more wolf than my mum's Collie x
However, did see this and thought it might make an apt present for someone to get you Gnasher
http://www.merrydogs.co.uk/product/round_sterling_silver_hand_stamped_dog_id_pet_id_tags/

Well I must say I only wanted the difference between an Alsation and a GSD... 5 pages to say that there isn't a difference...

LOL-----maybe we could club together and get her a car sticker as well?

rune

Basically the GSD is the breed & the Alsatian name was given to the breed by the KC here in the UK so that the breed wouldn't be subject to the prejudice that was around against anything German after WWI.

Sadly there are people who consider the Alsatian to be an English breed & want to continue to call their dogs by a made up name

I must remember it is "A"

It just one of silly things that bugs me-like Golden Labradors, Goldies(instead of Goldens), King Charles Cavaliers, Boarder Collies, Breaders, etc

Yes, that is quite correct, but you are quoting out of context, or at least leaving the important bit out! Von Stephanitz did indeed say this in the 1923 version, but in another paragraph he says that the original shepherds were wolf crosses - I am at work at the moment and am not going to attempt to try and remember the exact details and get it wrong, so it will have to wait until I get home tonight.

TOO LATE!! I already have one, especially made for me a present!!

Ah but it is not diluted. All modern day GSDs trace their lines back to Elkein/Hektor/Horand, whatever you want to call him, and either he was the quarter wolf, or his forebears, I don't have my notes to hand here at work.

A closed stud book in other words, making all GSDs something like 20/25% wolf crosses.

You can't even guarantee the lineage of your own dog so how can you be so sure of the lineage of every GSD ever bred in the last 100 years?

Anyway, genetics don't work in exactly percentages. A dog bred with a wolf on paper makes a "50% wolf" litter but half the dogs may inherit more wolfy traits, half my inherit more dog traits, or there may be a big sliding scale. So breeding a "50% wolf" with a "50% wolf" could end up with a very wolfy pup, a very dog-like pup or something inbetween. Generation after generation, you cannot work out the percentage of wolf in each litter.

exactly its hardly a closed controlled gene pool :?

so according to Gnasher GSD's are wolfdogs like the saarloos and csv...if this was the case why bother with the two 'newer' breeds :?

Broadly speaking yes, I suppose you could say that. But the GSDs are totally different IMO behaviourally especially than the Saarloos and the CSV. For starters, I don't believe either Saarloos or CSV are any good for guarding, although I am aware of the original reason for the breeding of CSVs. They are far less "shepherdy", than the GSD.

This must be because of the more recent wolfblood re CSV and Saarloos. Even if you say that all GSDs are 20% wolf cross, which is a pretty accurate statement, this is not recent wolf blood, it goes back over 100 years, so although it is correct to say that they are around 20% wc's, they are not at all "wolfy" in their behaviour, unlike possibly the CSV and especially the Saarloos. I find this very hard to explain, but let's take the scenario of an F4 wolf cross. You would expect that F4 to be pretty wolfy in behaviour wouldn't you, shy, aloof, scared of strangers, useless at guarding etc. etc. Not necessarily. If the 3 generations before him had been raised as "normal" dogs from 6 weeks, in exactly the same way as any other dog, then although that F4 would most likely look wolfy, and probably have a wolf grey coat, although not necessarily, he would be behaviourally pretty much as any normal dog.

so over the last 100+ years the wolf traits of shyness, aloofness, lack of desire to please etc. etc. have been bred out of the GSD, but what you cannot breed out is the original wolf content. You can breed out behavioural traits, small ears, big ears, whatever you want, but if all modern day GSDs can trace their lines directly back to good old SZ1 (who was a quarter wolf - the translation of the ORIGINAL studbook is held in the States and is undoctored - see below), then all GSDs are a quarter wolf or thereabouts, because SZ1 was put to one of his daughters I believe to produce Beowulf. With a closed genepool like this, you cannot somehow magically get rid of the original wolf, or indeed shepherd content.

"In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard working dogs called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" in which he documents the above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. Fang@howling.com has a pricey (about $350) original and more may(?) be found by doing rare book searches. In 1932, an 8th Enlarged and 'Revised' (read sanitized) version was financed by English speaking 'interests'. All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since. "

I believe this paragraph is from Ann Dresselhaus's original research article, but I am not sure about that, as the link I had to her article according to my hubby no longer works.

Simply because ALL modern day GSDs can trace their lines back to SZ1.

A bit like with thoroughbred horses. To qualify as a TB, they all can trace their lines back to 2 or 3 Arab stallions.

hmmm.... csv's not guards??? bred to 'police the borders' alone and were allowed if no humans where about to kill the person :?

the only reason they are not as strong in this instinct now is because they are not bred to do the job anymore,the csv we have today are mainly from the few dogs that survived that were in pet homes so the original traits were 'watered down'

soz o/t

Genetics doesn't work that way, each GSD won't be a quarter wolf. If that was the case then chihuahuas would be just as much wolf as a GSD because you "can't magically get rid of the original wolf"

Went to a lecture where they stated that genetically the nearest breed to the wolf is the poodle. Thats when the explanation went beyond my genetics knowledge.
I have met a GSD wolf cross back in the 1960s. Sadly she was rather nervous & seemed to have not inherited the best of either her wolf or GSD parent. She would not have been any good as a working dog.
As for what was in the original GSDs I doubt we will ever know as too much at the time was faked to suit the fashion prevailing at the time it was written.

I have two German Shepherds. They used to be called Alsations because of anti-german feeling caused by the World Wars.
They are lovely dogs. Dogs - got that? Definitely dogs.
Back on topic, then?
so here are some photos of my German Shepherds.
Everyone loves German Shepherd pics...

Sheila

Lucy

Holly

Sheba

Daisy

Razzle


not wolves, dear. Dogs.