100% Wolf X Dog Controversial

Good for you.
While the rest of us just talk, you are actually doing something about it.

Well this is all very interesting. There appear to be a couple of new posters with so little to do that they occupy their time calling up councils and DEFRA on other parts of the country where there are rumours that one Mr Ellis may be aquiring some property.

What is odd is that as far as anyone knows Mr. Ellis and his wolves are still where they have always been in a licenced park in Devon. It is also surprising to assume that the said Mr.Ellis might be trying to sneak a dozen wolves into his new house without anyone noticing, least of all the authorities that he has obviously be dealing with for the last x many years. Must we now assume that they are so inept that they haven't noticed the local press, national and international media talking about wolves in Devon. Why is this rumour-mongering regarded as news? Who are these authorities looking into his past? The CIA, FBI, KGB, MI5, MI6 or ITV2?

Animals escape; Dohles from Howllets and last year a wolf from a nearby Zoo in Devon (featured on the national news and a TV documentray series about a small Devon Zoo) to mention a couple. It happens. My dog jumped the fence at lunch time and I had to trot up the hill on a full stomach, who is bothered. Are people in Bedfordshire or wherever worried for their saftey?

While his latest TV show may not have met with critical acclaim in the USA, it has yet to air in the UK and so we haven't had a chance to make up our minds as to its merits. Maybe Mr Ellis is losing his way and maybe his Poland project is questionable but it is well documented (by a photo exhibition as I recall) several years before the National Geographic documentry.

This all sounds like sour grapes by somebody. It is odd that on this very forum a dog breeder from Kent made it public that he was cross breeding his Czechoslovakian wolfdogs with a 'pure' Timberwolf and everybody said how lovely his dogs looked. Yet Mr Ellis is rumoured (I have seen no conformation by him in writing anywhere) that he is considering breeding a working dog based on a wolf X wolfdog. The last I read on an online forum was that these animals were not to be for sale to the public. So if you want a wolf cross wolfdog, legal or otherwise you gotta go to the man in Kent. Is that not what this argument was all about? Wolves being crossed with dogs, not about government licencing? Does Mr. Ellis have any unpaid parking tickets? Maybe we should dig that dirt as well.

As a member of various forums worldwide I do find this muck stuff not only distracting from any useful conversation but in the USA it would be considered slanderous at the very least and it amazes me the lack of guidence given by forum administrators. It make no difference to me if you all want to love some one one minute and lynch 'em the next, but wouldn't it be nice to be civil on a dog forum; and keep to the subject?

I wrote to and received a reply from the DWA Licencing officer for the North Devon Area. Also I should imagine that Ellis would require planning pemission to erect the wolf enclosures, as they are required by law to be a certain height and depth into the ground. The public & local farmers around the site would need to be informed of the plan to keep wolves & wolf hybrids & any objections would be evaluated by the council before giving Ellis planning permision.

If you read CR's diaries you will see that all what has been said is true, unless CR is lying, in fact they plan to breed Wolf to Wolfdog for use in a "rent a pack" great eh!!

Not quite sure what that has to do with anything; I read the rent a pack thing -it is on similar lines to the Polish wolf deterent idea and is for use in Europe.

The problem is that you read someone else's postings; lets say based on a conversation with the someone else who has been on TV talking about wolves. In the conversation someone conveys an idea for a project (good, bad, crazy or not is not the issue) and this is later written on the internet. Does the poster say that they were going to illegally breed wolfdogs or keep wolves? Not to my knowledge. Did they say they had started to do so? If so please tell me where? I told someone I am going to build an extension on my house but I haven't yet applied for planning permission and I don't consider it is anyone else's business until I do so.

I still can't see why anyone else considers it their business to call a council in a part of the country that concerns them not. One can only presume that they are, themselves, squeaky clean and Saint Like?

OR one could presume they themselves aren't breeding dangerous animals they these people themselves can't even contain properly!!

Thats up to them, I didnt call the council did I, but I do think crossing Wolves with Dogs is madness, crazy time for people, what on gods earth for?

Perhaps people shouldnt tell the whole world what they are going to do, or what they intend to do if they havent already, or whether they wont or might not do it at all? Or even perhaps they should keep their mouthes shut if they dont want comment on it having posted it on a public forum!

I appreciate your point, but you didnt tell the entire internet you were having an extension did you? Why is that? Because its your business and you dont want others commenting on it, nor knowing about it, Id feel the same. However you may well tell everyone you have had an extension built AFTER it has been done. Perhaps CR should of done the same? However, I doubt he gives a toss what anyone thinks, he doesnt strike me as a guy who is bothered about stuff like that and as much as I detest the crossbreeding, I dont think for a minute they wouldnt of gone about it in the right and lawful way.

The subject of this thread is the 'possible' breeding of a wolf with a dog. Shaun Ellis is the person who may be starting this venture, so naturally we are going to discuss him. Local people in particular will be very worried about this 'potential' breeding project. The subject is not heresay, you can read about it for yourself in Charlie Richardson's diaries on his site, where he clearly states that he proposes to open a joint venture with Shaun Ellis to breed his Saarloos bitches with Ellis's male wolves and they will be moving to this site in February. Why post this information on the internet if you do not want people to know about it and discuss it? Apart from this 'proposed' breeding being highly irresponsible and unethical, Shaun Ellis does not have any professional qualifications in animal behaviour, biology or zoology- which is a fact- & Charlie Richardson is a domestic dog breeder. The breeding of dogs and wolves is highly unpredictable and the resulting hybrids could be unstable with dangerous temperaments, as has been shown in the U.S.A, where many of these unfortunate animals have ended up being euthanised- another fact. What are they going to do with any F1 & F2 hybrids that have physical or behavioural problems? If you need any further confimation to Ellis's reputation- contact the Wolf Conservation Trust or Wolf Watch UK. These people are doing real good work for wolf education & conservation & they don't exploit their wolves for profit or celebrity status.

I am very much each to there own and always have been I take people's opinions on board and often see there point of view even if i dont like it BUT this man has had a wolf escape why would she if she was happy where she was?
He is risking his girlfriends life by sticking her in there with them all, what would happen if it had all gone wrong after all they are supposed to be wild?
And last but not least why would such a so called great man want ANYTHING to do with someone who pumps out pups like CR?

The more I look at it the more it seems for publicity and is actually nothing about the wolfs, which is such a shame as I would truely love my kids (when I have them ) to grow up knowing that there are wild wolves in great britain that are not stuck behind bars and relying on humans to be fed, the lengths people go to for a bit of fame n fortune is appalling n makes me sick to my stomach!

Hi Wolfdogowner
Do you believe that out of all of the F1 & F2 pups from this venture not a single one will not land up in the hands of the public (or their friends)
Do you think there is any possibility that there are already F1 & F2 / hybrids in the hands of the public or their friends?

I dont see why you are surprised that we are discussing it here on a dog forum, it would seem the best place to do it & you yourself are joining in. Everyone is entitled to an opinion & if one member wishes to take that further by contacting his council he is well within his rights to do so.

Maybe local people will be concerned about any new site but none seem to have come forward here. Only London, Beds, Scotland.

I would agree that posting your intentions on the internet does invite comment but the comment was implying a breach of the law in a way that cannot concern people who are not affected. It does not relate to the thread. The other counterpoint to that is that Mr Ellis has never posted anything on the internet in his life as far as I am aware.

The breeding of wolves and dogs has gone on forever, only a change in the law could curb that. There seems little interest shown here for the other 'breeders' crossing wolves and dogs (or wolfdogs) and no one has asked the question of how they got their wolves considering it is illegal to trade in endangered species; both in the Europe and the USA.

It is common knowledge that the wolf conservation trust have waged an anti Ellis campaign but I think it is more to do with a clash of personalities than anything else, mind you I never saw Shaun Ellis parading an unhappy wolf around on a chain in public ;-)

Have they? I wouldnt know. So it would appear that they disagree with him in his practices then?

I cannot comment about pups from the venture ending up in pubic hands, nor have I expressed any opinion as to if I think the whole thing is a good idea or not. I simply cannot guess at the integrity of these people in the future.

If the people who already have 'wolves' and these wolves are 'pure' like they have stated and they have bred them (as stated on other forums) and have sold the pups (as they have said) then if they are to be believed then the answer has to be yes there are F1 and F2 animals about in public.

I am not surprised about the discussion but these people are not, it would appear, contacting 'their' council. It would be a bit like me ringing up a council in Scotland and saying that I am not happy with Mr Paul Lister talking about releasing wolves into his 50,000 acre estate after all he is not a trained biologist and has no formal qualifications for looking after predators.

When the Nat Geo program was aired they wrote a piece on their website, put an article in their magazine and and a further piece in another of their publications. I was told that he was trying to be the 'Alpha' wolf in the program. Watch it and make your own mind up. The management of the organisation has been changed since then, I believe.

Yes some people agree that what he is doing is good and others don't. Just like politics or internet forums I guess.

I try very hard to keep an open mind and to try and find the facts amongst the dross.

Thanks, appreciated.

Hence threads like these appearing & people being concerned.
Thank you for replying to all my points. When i first seen Ronnie's dogs i did marvel at their beauty, i thought they were CWD. I said they were the best i'd seen, most wolf looking but after noting many of his comments here & other forums then looking at the photo's again after that it did concern me as to just how much wolf content there was & he has admitted selling his pups to a well known breeder/friend & a member of the public/friend. People are right to be concerned. I dont know much about the SE & CR venture other than what i read here. I do like to see both sides of a debate but i'm not at all happy with 'Joe Public' owning an F1 OR F2. Scary stuff.

Ref the point that was made about it being elligal to trade in endangered species, that only aplies if siad species is listed on appendix I of CITES. Species listed there have an outright ban, unless it is for scientific purposes or similar.

Taken from CITES
"Canis lupus (Only the populations of Bhutan, India, Nepal and Pakistan; all other populations are included in Appendix II)"

From what I can recall, animals listed under appendix II can be comersially traded providing the required licenses and other conditions are met.

I worked in an exotic petshop near to where I live, and one of the people in there has a lot of contacts where importing species is concerned. I bet if I wanted a wolf, He'd be abled to find me one, and just incase your wondering it'd be done completly legally.

I find that quite scary that they are so - available.
Mind you in saying that there are many private collections in Scotland.

I hadn't actually asked him, but have been meaning to out of curiosity. He is just the type of person you know will be able to find one if it is possible, conciddering he asked the manager if he was interested in buying in 50 baby american alligators. The answer was no, the main reason being we had no were to keep that many baby ones, and unfortunately, he said that the person he could get them off wouldn't let him just have 1, he had to take them all, so no baby crocs, shame really there cute when there that little. The other thing being, we'd have to find 50 people who had dwa lisences to keep them.

"The export of any specimen of a species included in Appendix II shall require the prior grant and presentation of an export permit. An export permit shall only be granted when the following conditions have been met:

(a) a Scientific Authority of the State of export has advised that such export will not be detrimental to the survival of that species;

(b) a Management Authority of the State of export is satisfied that the specimen was not obtained in contravention of the laws of that State for the protection of fauna and flora; and

(c) a Management Authority of the State of export is satisfied that any living specimen will be so prepared and shipped as to minimize the risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment."

Lets hope everyone's got all their paper-work in order. Any contravention is termed as breaking the law! So it would depend where you got your wolf from; for example in many states of the USA the wolf IS protected under the Endangered Species Act, even though it may just be a plain old Appendix II animal.

Anything is possible, I have met people in the UK who have some of the worlds most endangered animals (cats) in sub-urban back gardens, quite legaly.