100% Wolf X Dog Controversial

Hal was owned by Gnasher who bought him from Eddie Harrison believing him to be a wolf x.

Quite a lot of the information in this thread has stayed on topic, it surprises me you would call for it to be closed

not in the last couple of pages...prior to, yes...but the last bit has just been a bunch of people calling each other liars...i see no good out of that.

Ok right where to start.....

This is only my opinion and as many of you are very happy to point out we all have a right to air our views so here goes. I'm sorry it goes on a bit...

First of all I own a British Inuit dog age 2 years he is from only Northern Inuit lines so "Probably" no wolf content (but well that's whole other story) and a Saarloos cross Northern Inuit bitch aged 10 months (50% Saarloos)

Of the two dogs I have to admit my BI has been alot more challenging he has a very strong personality, very wilful and very stubbourn, full of energy who never ever stops. I have always had to be very assertive with him and make sure he knows who is the boss. From an early age I made sure I could take food and bones or anything away from him, it wasn't that straight forward the first raw bone he had when I went to take it away he growled (he was only 11 weeks old), I immediately pinned him growled a very stern no and took the bone away, after that he didn't challenge me again over a bone, even to this day I'll challenge him over every bone he has, now when I walk towards him he'll leave the bone and walk away, if I aproach while he is eating from his food bowl he'll do the same and back away giving me respect. He is a big very friendly dog who has always been very bold, afraid of no one or anything.

Now my Saarloos x NI is a completely different matter she is much more submissive and alot easier to control, never had any food aggression, or challenged me in anyway. She is alot quieter no where near as boistrous as my BI and seems to have a much lower energy level. I didn't get her until she was 16 weeks because her previous owner could no longer keep her, at first she was quite reserved around strangers prefering to circle around the back of them and sniff them from a distance (which somepeople seem to find unnerving, I constantly amazing how ignorant some people are to dog behavier), she would approach in her own time and would quickly warm to anyone. She was nervious of walking along the pavement with cars passing and would flinch at every car that passed. Well that was then and now she is a bold out going dog who will happily approach a complete stranger for affection.

Now both dogs are very very friendly dogs who really enjoy meeting lots of people and neither are nervious in strange stituations, they will happily and confidently travel on the bus into town and walk through a very busy town centre packed with strange people, traffic, noise and smells. They are both great around children, even very small children and the funny thing is most children love them, I've lost count of the number of children have thrown their arms around them and hugged them often much to the horror of their parents. (oh and neither dog has lived with children as I have none but do have young children in the extended family.)

Now my point is, in my limited experiance if anyone asked me which would be the easier dog to own I would without hesitation say a Saarloos wolfdog x Inuit, I understand (I have not yet personnely met a Saarloos, but hope too soon) that a Saarloos wolfdog can be more reserved and a much more specialist dog, maybe not a dog for the novice owner. Now in my experiance the BI/NI is a very boistrous out going dog which can be hard work, but does have an amazing temperment. I think the cross between these two breeds makes a very balanced happy and very intellegent dog, it's also a great way of introducing new healthy blood into the existing inuits. Everyone knows cross breed dogs tend to be healthier longer lived dogs than 'pedigree' dogs.

Secondly Shaun Ellis, I can't believe some of you are saying he is in it for the money. He gave up everything including his family to live with and learn about wolves, he now lives in a CARAVAN not a flashy big house, yes he has a different way of doing things but it works for him, his wolves are obviously happy well fed and content animals, so one escaped well so what she didn't go far, recently a pack of wild dogs escaped from a wildlife park and not all of those survived. Shaun obviously cares about wolves a great deal and wants a future for them, can any of you say that is wrong.

Now his future plans to me sound very exciting, you all seem to think he is just going to start churning out wolfdogs to all who want one, well that is just stupid and he is not stupid, he has a plan for all the wolfdogs he plans to create with the help Charlie's Saarloos, I do not see anything wrong with crossing wolves with dogs if it is done by experianced senisible people who know what they are doing, I can't think of anyone more experianced than Shaun Ellis. I don't see the problem with creating a new breed of dog after all every single breed of dog was once upon a time a new breed and with the state of many of these so called pedigree dogs, I don't think many of them will be around much longer, I think alot of breeds are beyond saving, which yes is sad, but is entirely their breeders faults.

and NO I don't think these high wolf content wolfdogs should be available to the general public but that is NOT the plan. Many of you are very quick to quote American satistics but everyone knows statistics can be bent anyway you want and do not give reasons behind the attacks and anyway this is NOT America. F1 and F2 Wolfdogs are not legal in this country without a licence and nor should they be, they are a very specialist animal. I do not doubt for one minute that there are genuine wolfdogs living happy in the UK probably undercover as Inuits or crossbreeds but no one who owns a genuine wolfdog without a licence is going to admit it and risk loosing their wolfdog which would probably destroyed.

And finially I think only people who genuinely have spent anytime with a wolfdog weither Saarloos, Czech or other, have any right to comment on them. I'm sure some of the people who comment on this forum haven't even met a Northern/British Inuit let alone a Saarloos, Czech or a cross of them. I think there are alot more dangerous breeds out there than wolfdogs, any dog can be dangerous if in the wrong hands, I've met Jack Russells, Border terriers, Yorkies and Cocker spaniels more dangerous than my dogs, because of there size they are allowed to get away with being snappy and aggressive, when they've attacked my dogs their owners think they are brave fiesty little dogs but if one of my dogs was to retaliate they would be described as a dangerous animal who should be muzzled when it's the nasty snappy little dog that should be muzzled.

Sorry for the lenth of my post and for some of the spelling and thanks for reading.

P.S. If anyone would like to see photos of my two wolfdog/wolflike dogs lots of photos can be seen in the gallery of that other forum you know Charlie's one. (not allowed to post link) my user name is the same as on here.

I watched the Shaun Ellis program (Mr & Mrs Wolf) tonight and thought it was very interesting, I must admit to being very jealous, what an amazing opertunity to be able to interact with a wolf pack on their level. I would love to be able to meet the pack of wolves like that.

Hi Wolfwannabe; I wont 'quote' you post coz its so long!

Is your BI essentially a NI x with a Czech? Or with Czech blood as I think they may be (just a question), if so it could account for the high energy levels. I met quite a few like that.

I think the Saarloos X is potentially an easier dog to live with, so far I have not seen one with the severe shyness of some pure Saarloos.

Not to do with the last post at all:

Something that should be pointed out on this thread is that not all Saarloos are born equal. Some do have a very heavy dose of shyness. These animals are very fearful of people and no matter what is done in the way of nurture, nature will prevail. These animals are very sensitive to 'dominant' people and can spot them a mile off (read what you like into dominant). People will confuse this shyness with being a fearful dog. It is not quite the same thing; these animals are really extremely cautious and do not trust anything or anyone that is new or appears out of place. They can still bond very close with their owners.

Most Saarloos will show some degree of caution to strangers. They are a very different animal to the Czech.

Hi wolfdogowner,

I just wanted to say that not all older BI's have Czech in them some come from purely NI lines. They are just not NI registered.

I agree with your statement that not all Saarloos are born equal and that some are alot more reserved than others but I do think nurture can make a huge difference in the way any dog eventually turns out. I'm certain my Saarloos cross in some hands would have stayed a very reserved and cautious dog. Of course I also think that having a bold outgoing canine companion also helped

Hi wolfwannabe, it's nice to here from sone one who actually owns one of these crosses. It would seem from your post that the benafit of this cross ref temperament is twofold, calming down the ni part, whilst removing some of the posible extreem shyness of the saarloos. Ref health, I'm not getting into that argument, but I can see the reasons why it is being done. It is just my oppinion but I think that quite a few pedegree breeds could benafit from a bit of outcrossing, as long, as it is done with care and causion, then I have no problem with it.

Ref SE, I've not said anyting remotely bad about him, I don't know him from adam. I to watched the documentary as did my family, and yes, there is a part of me that'd love to be in there with the wolves. I have no doubt that he cares for his chosen species. My only concern ref the new british saarloos which I have already mentioned is with its suitability as a guide dog, purely based on the shy nature of the saarloos, and I don't see how crossing it back with the wolf will help. I am not doubting that they won't be clever enough or intune enough with their owners, its just will they actually enjoy, being taken into so many new places, full of new people and be expected to just get on with it.

P.s
If this is something he is seriously going to considder, then I'll gladly arrange to meet with either CW or SE or both, and they can see what my working guide dog is expected to do. Then they can see for themselves if it is something that their new breed will be suitale for, if it is indeed something they're interested in. Of course I'm nota member fot ehe other forum, so if you could pass that message on, I'd appreciate it, thanks. Sory for spelling, the keys keep sticking.

I think the threads getting a bit muddled in that the posts are being crossed between this one 'pure wolf x dog' & the wolfdog discussion in the other section, wolfwannabe does not have pure wolf x dog he has Saarloos x. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Wolfdogwannabe i believe Mr Ellis runs various courses for you to at least part fulfill your dream
Shadow a keeper
Awareness day
Basic course
Intermediate course.
I have heard Mr Ellis is not always available to take them due to his new found fame & another keeper takes over, you may want to bear that in mind / check that out?

I also watched the programme with much interest, it was of course 'i believe' hyped up & dramatized for t.v with the inclusion of his partner, having lived with him for 3 years i find it a bit hard to believe she knew little of this pack or their behaviour. He did not seem to be too hurt to me in his scuffle with the wolf considering what it could have done so i'm not convinced there was any need for him to go back to 'show it' the following day (what did he do to show it?) I note that was not televised.
Has anybody heard of Timothy Treadwell? You could google him, he lived with grizzly bears for 13 seasons, they killed him & ate him. Maybe he was trying to 'show them'?

Saarloos would not be my choice as a guide dog! The early experiments were done with 25% wolf content animals in Holland just before and after the war when there was little traffic. As traffic increased so did accidents! The modern Saarloos is very different.

Going off topic here I know but, I saw a documentary on that guy, the bear man, there is another many with that name. Doesn't one of his friends have the camera recording of him bassically being ripped apart, but the lenze cap was left on, so all you would here was sound. They've never played it though, so why they mentioned it is beyond me. There was a couple of times when his actions were called into question.

As are the actions of Mr Ellis.

I think there is a subtle difference between Treadwell and Ellis. Treadwell was an amateur who spent his summers close to the bears -bears are generally regarded as far more dangerous than wolves, who will usually avaid contact with people (habituation excepted). Yes Treadwells family inherited the video camera but all thought it too distressing to broadcast.

Shaun Ellis takes calculated risks based on a lot of experience and he does work and live with these animals everyday and has done for years, so there is no comparison. I did not see the TV program but will say that all TV is scripted to a degree and there is pressure to create drama for the story. The risks of injury are still real because the wolves are big strong animals. If you like or dislike Mr Ellis and his program is up to you.

Ref the programme last night, I know I shouldn't have done but I did have a little laugh when that camera woman got stuck in the hide.

I had a little giggle when SE got bitten, what an absolute idiot!

Maybe not my first choice either. But, If they decide to take me up on my offer, then it might help them in their desition what ever they eventually decide. At least if they decide then they might go into it with a bit more insite as to what is required, regardless as to wether you or I think it'll work, I think they'll do it anyway.

Did you see the clip for next week, that can't be safe. I no its vastly different but, I wonder if the Dutchers wolves ever did anything like that to them.

I honestly think the guy is totally deranged! WHY would anyone in their right mind be so bloody stupid? No wonder his first wife left him, and now this partner too. Why would anyone want Wolves (or other animals) INSIDE their mouthes, he's sick!

Below is an extract from CR's diary on the CW forum, dated 30 Jan:

I am aware that there is a view being expressed by the kindly and good folk on Dogsey that the breeding of wolves and dogs is an abhorrence and an abomination (those are my words but I believe they capture the essence of what is being written) and that any such enterprise is a ‘disaster waiting to happen’. I would just like to reassure these well-meaning folk that there will be no F1 or F2 hybrids made available to anyone anywhere, let alone an unsuitable pet home somewhere. When we eventually get to F3 we will have to assess the dogs suitability for the ‘utility’ tasks we have in mind and should they look promising they will only then be released as ‘working’ dogs and will never be available for general adoption.

Seems that any new working breed is some ways off yet as it will take at least 6 years to get to F3, but from what I know about CR I imagine he would be interested to hear from you.

He said that about the Saarloos and their puppies, look what happened there. I have held CR in much respect with regard to his kennels, exercise etc.. and still do, but I think all this wolf business is madness. Those Wolves we saw last night, what possible "good" can they bring to pet dogs, in 10 generations, let alone 3?

I watched a documentary on the Dutchers was very very good not like the SE cartoon

The problem being, I'm not on the cw forum.