100% Wolf X Dog Controversial

I have no idea what those abbreviations stand for
could someone please enlighten me ?
Thanks

I can imagine, wonder what their neibours think. Wasn't there a guy who kept a tiger in a flat, apparantly he thought it was a dog... really.

Lets hope theydo have all their paperwork, though wouldn't it be covered under a different system if the wolves were captive bred, as it seems that CITES only deals with animals from the wild. I checked their database for wolves beeing exported from some countries, and non were for zoos/private collections, they wern't even live specamins, just pelts and skulls, in numbers ranging from 30 to 150 per year, its quite sad really.

Sory that was me being lazy lol. here you go.
Cwd = Czechoslovakian wolfdog
Swh = Saarloos wolfhond/wolfdog
Sibs = Siberian husky
Mals = Alaskan malamute
Nid = Northern inuit dog/ni
Ut = Utonagan
Bi = British inuit
Akita = Japanese Akita/japanese akita inu
Gsd = German shepherd dog
Tamaskan
Swedish elkhound

Hope that helps.

Would you care to justify this? How many pups has he produced? Over what period of time? From how many different bitches?

Have you met any of the pups he's produced to help you form a judgement? Have you met any of the people who have one of his pups? Did you ever visit cry-wolf to see what went on there?

Or are you just another internet saddo pumping out yourself? Vitriolic bilge that is, via your keyboard.

Take a look on his website genius, doesn't take a breeder to see import 7 bitches and using them straight away is not right does it??
I've never said anything bad about his pups im sure they are lovely!
Try reading before spouting

What has importing bitches got to do with pumping out pups? The seven bitches produced a total of five live pups! Some of his other bitches produced one litter a year each for the last three years, and most of the pups were pre-ordered. I'm well aware of the website and its contents, which is why I challenged you to justify the puppy pumping comment, which you are clearly unable to do.

You've met none of the dogs, none of the owners, not seen the kennels for yourself, have not got a clue how many pups have actually come from cry-wolf, yet you feel free to pontificate about and stray close to the libel/slander boundary on something you actually know **** all about.

Yep, a definite internet saddo! Ticks all the boxes!

Ref CW, based on what I've read on his site and seen on his webcams, I have to say that as far as the care and wellfair of his dogs go, there are many non comersial breeders with much fewer dogs, that provide much less. Ref the number of litters he produced, lets say if he has 30 dogs, 15 of whitch are bitches, and each bitch has 1 litter a year, then thats 15 litters. Now that may be a lot by hobby breeders standards, but he's not a hobby breeder, he's a comersial breeder, which is slightly different. 1 litter a year, for a bitch with plenty of time to recover is hardly exscessive, for the individual dogs. That is just an example of course. If all the litters are given the kind of care it seems they are, then I actually have no problem with that, as unpopular as that may make me.

Ref the 7 imported dogs, I believe reading somewhere that he admitted that it wasn't prob the wisest thing to do, and that he prob should have waited a year for them to settle, at least he admitted the mistake.
Now wether I agree with crossing wolves with saarloos which is suposed to be the topic of this thread is another matter. But as far as CW's dogs go, he has produced some lovely looking ones, and from what I've read about them from people who own them, they have nice temperaments to, and I'd be lying if I saidthat there wasn't a part of me that wouldn't like one. My point being, that there are many worse breeders both comercial and non-comercial, within the wolf lookalike groups and within pure breed groups as well.

Anyway back to wolf hybrids.

Yeah we have seen pictures of some of the bad ones!! IN kennels with solid panels so they can't see out and spend most of their time on their hind legs trying to see the other dogs

It sounds like they keep their dogs in stable blocks... so are there horses in the kennels lol. I know I shouldn't joke about something so shocking, but I couldn't help it.

http://www.wolfzone1.com/wolf-dog-puppies-for-sale.php

No not stable blocks and never seen any horses..
just distressed looking dogs on their hind legs trying to see out the kennels...

This may be a bit outdated now but a new funded study on wolfdog and wolf hybrid behaviour is about to be published soon.



Wolves and Wolf-dog hybrids Don’t Make Pets

By Dr. Michael W. Fox

The evident suffering of captured wild animals, which is well documented over the past 10-14,000 years, is a manifest reality of animal domestication. Wild stock must be captured, confined, and suffer the stresses of captivity to which they are neither adapted physically nor emotionally. Subsequent generations are selected for their ability to adapt to the conditions and demands of domesticity. Those that cannot adapt must be killed. But if, like a wolf, they mature relatively slowly, they must be kept for many months before one can tell if indeed they will adapt and settle down. Increasing instability may develop with increasing age in young, captive-raised wolves, especially around five months of age and again around sexual maturity around one to two years of age. During this developmental and adaptation phase, the animal suffers from being deprived of freedom and space to be active and explore, from fear of strangers and unfamiliar things, and from having basic instincts confused and conflicted, denied, and frustrated. This is a form of suffering that can be avoided by not trying to turn a wild wolf into a pet or companion animal.

The same is true for wolf-dog hybrids, especially with the first and second generation hybrids. More dog "diluted" wolf hybrids are generally more adaptable, but only a percentage of earlier generation hybrids are stable and adaptable. The rest do suffer, as my research on wolf x dog and coyote x dog hybrids has shown. Many finish up having to be euthanized. Is their suffering worth it so that a few people can enjoy owning a wolf-dog hybrid? Some may claim that this is their "right," but is the right of ownership greater than the right of animals -- the unstable predecessors and littermates of your stable and adaptable hybrid --to non-suffering? I think not. Those who keep and propagate wolf-dog hybrids may well reflect upon this. The scientific evidence for suffering they cannot deny, nor should they skirt the ethical issue claiming that it is their right to own and create such hybrids. Nor can they rationalize and avoid the issue of unnecessary suffering by claiming that they are "improving" various dog breeds. There are enough genes in "dogdom" to improve every breed without having to introduce wolf genes again. Neither can they abdicate ethical responsibility by focusing on their own particular hybrid animal and rationalizing that it’s okay since some are stable and make good pets. Who is responsible for the misfits that must be destroyed or kept in a cage or otherwise protected from terrifying strangers? Who but the owners and propagators of wolf-dog hybrids. They may, and surely must, love their animals, but I contend that their love is blind and immature, lacking responsible compassion and awareness of the ethical ramifications of their self-indulgence.

While some breeders of hybrids may carefully place their creations with good owners, can we always guarantee that such sensitive and unstable or potentially unstable, psychically delicate creatures do not fall into brutal hands, the kind of person who wants a savage wolf in his dog? You may avoid this yourself, but other mercenaries will commercialize on their hybrid creations and mass-market wolf-dogs and sell them to anyone. Suffering may then be compounded when potentially stable hybrids are sold to unstable people who are drawn to the negative wolf mythos of wolves being fierce and aggressive, and who have neither the sensitivity nor knowledge to handle such an animal.

The prevention and alleviation of animal suffering is one step in the direction toward a more compassionate society, and clearly the propagation of wolf-dog hybrids is one of many unnecessary self-indulgent activities, which a more mature and enlightened humanity would not engage in. Surely we can enjoy and enjoin with other life forms on Earth without having to create them for ourselves. To fight to conserve the wolf and its wilderness habitat, for example, is better than enslaving its genes to create some hybrid pet. The latter has no right to be born, for that which does not exist cannot have rights. But we have the responsibility to assure that hybrids will not be born since there can be no guarantee that they will not suffer after they are born: and their right to a life of non-suffering can never be guaranteed, and is surely greater than someone’s claim to breed, sell and own such an animal. So let sleeping dogs lie and wolves have sanctuary in the wild. We can respect and love both without adding to the problems of the biosphere and the burden of suffering and of human responsibility by interbreeding the wolf and dog.

Perhaps, deep in our psyches, we are both wolf and dog ourselves, still wild and yet civilized. Or do we long for a sense of the wild and of the wilderness in our urban lives? Do we then vicariously satisfy this need by shooting a wild "trophy" animal, or keeping one captive, or incorporating a part of the animal’s wild essence into a domestic dog? Or is possession simply for social status and self-aggrandizement by having something unusual?

Let us examine, therefore, not only the ethics of owning and breeding wolf-dog hybrids, but the underlying motives also. Some may feel close to God, as creators of such unique animals. But a closer look into the mirror will reveal that many of these attractive hybrids are unstable misfits. If we are to be the trustees of all that is wild and the humane stewards of our fellow creatures, we must see that everything already has its place and understand that we create further chaos and suffering when we change the natural order for selfish ends. Wolf Hybrid Study: Summary Statement

Between 1967 and 1974, while I taught at Washington University, St. Louis, I studied the behavior and development of many species of wild canids, including certain hybrids (coyote x beagle and wolf x malamute). Many of the canids I studied had the same rearing history, having been hand-raised, and all had much human contact and handling to ensure optimal socialization, i.e., as part of the research design, social and environmental influences were kept as constant as possible so that the genetic differences in behavior and development that we were interested in would not be masked or confounded by such variables.

The wolf stock was principally from (Canadian) McKenzie River Wolf Subspecies bred in captivity, and the domestic dog breed used in these studies was Alaskan malamute. Two hybrid litters were provided by Dr. John Schmidt (Snowmass, Colorado), which were first generation (F1) hybrids. From one of these we bred F1X malamutes (backcross). We also studied three hand-raised wolf litters, one litter of purebred malamutes and bred one litter of F1 wolf x malamutes. These data were not published because we did not breed an F2hybrid generation which would have provided insights into Mendelian patterns of segregation. (This was accomplished in coyote and dog hybridization research, hence, the latter was published in a scientific journal.) However, our wolf x dog hybrid studies did reveal a consistent pattern in temperament development. The "wild" traits of the wolf were evident in those hybrids having the most wolf genes and were least evident in the more "diluted" hybrids, i.e., F1 hybrid x malamute. However, within litter rather than between litter comparisons showed that even in the more wolf-dilute hybrids, later instabilities in temperament emerged in some individuals. While there is little doubt that with selective breeding, stable hybrids can be produced, my concern is over the fact that hybrid animals with behavior problems can result from breeding wolf and dog and will occur unpredictably in subsequent hybrid offspring.

While to eliminate such problems is a realistic and accepted goal of wolf x dog hybrid breeders, and while admittedly there are magnificent and temperamentally stable hybrids alive today, my concern over the unstable hybrids remains. I have encountered some that are more unstable than any timid hand-raised wolf even. Hybridization may therefore intensify emotional/behavioral problems in some wolf x dog combinations. This possibility gains indirect support from our coyote x dog studies where, in the F2 (second generation) hybrid generation, some individuals were indeed in this tragic category.

To get a wolf, crossbreed the wolf with a dog, and then expect the offspring to make "pets" and adapt to the domestic environment is something that should be outlawed. I wish every municipal authority would crack down on all breeders and traders, but not confiscate wild and hybrid pets, unless their living environments cause otherwise avoidable stress and suffering. Surely every living soul has a right to live and be well in conditions that are best for spirit, mind and body. This does not mean captivity for wild souls unless conditions are comparable to the natural state.

We do not have the knowledge yet to create homologous habitats identical to the real. The best we can ever hope for are successively higher fidelity analogs. But such efforts should not weaken our commitment to the conservation, protection and restoration of wild animals’ natural habitat. An apartment, house, cage, or backyard is such a low fidelity environment for a wild animal that many states do not permit them to be kept and propagated under such conditions, except on fox, mink, and other fur farms or ranches that are an abomination to any normal human sensibility

This is interesting reading too

http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfdogs/position.html

Both very interesting articles as are others on that site. One of the links in particular struck me 'Candy kitchen rescue'
Here is the quote - Between one and seven people call each day asking us to accept a wolf or wolf-dog. Many of these animals are in neglectful situations, have faced abuse, were abandoned multiple times and/or are confronted with no other choice than euthanasia. We are able to rescue a small number of these animals and specialize in the "tough cases" that cannot go anywhere else.


Between one & seven people per day !!!!!!!
If they only specialise in the tough cases, where do all the rest go? This is my fear of what will happen in the U.K.

Exactly. This cannot be allowed to happen here in the U.K. I'm contacting my MP and the RSPCA with the above information and other links outlining the dangers of breeding and keeping wolf hybrids. I would urge others who feel strongly about this to do the same.

What I'd like to know, is who decided that F3's were ok to be owned without a licence, and what infomation they had to suport this. They could have easily have said, all wolfdog/hybrids require licences except for recognised breeds like czech and saarloos.

Slightly more complex would be to say, if a person wants to breed F3 to say F7 generations wolfdogs, that the animals have to under go a battery of temperament test at 6 mths, 12 mths and then 2 years old, and only if they pass said tests will a lisence be granted to breed them. I also think that the breeders should pass some kind of wolf behaviour understanding test to prove that he/she is capable of handling the animals, and a similar test for people wishing to own said generations of hybrids. I know it will never happen but, its a nice thought.

and 1 to 7 calls per day, is quite worrying, but I'd still like to see that number of calls compaired with some other breed specific rescues to put some perspective on it.

It was suggested to me that this might be based on a study on wild felines, which indicated behavioural stability at F3.

As for your suggestion that breeders should, and more importantly, owners should pass a test is excellent. The only thing is to make sure the testers themselves are knowledgable!

I believe that in France that a test is mandatory and the keeping of any hybrid is very difficult and almost impossible to get a licence for.

Ref the testers, I think that they should have a minimum amount of years hand on experience working with wolves or high content hybrids and it can be proven that their animals were looked after in a high standard, and of course, a good understanding of wolf and dog behaviour.

If it is that difficult to obtain one, then at least it stops people from buying on a whim.