"Working"English Springer Spaniels Discussions

why are you not able to show a "working" ess? I know that there is a different breed that is a "show" dog.
but surely ALL pedigree dogs are able to be put in the show ring. am I being thick, oer something? I think they have something to offer the showing public as they are more athletic in appearance etc...what do all you ess owners think?

I totally agree with you. Im sure show spaniels would be able to do working trials , but it doesnt seem to be the other way around. Hope someone sheds some light on this

I didn't know you couldn't show working ESS as long as they were KC reg . . . I just thought it was a case of they may not do very well because of the difference in build? I know my BIL's working ESS look little like the ones being shown at crufts.

You can show them, there is nothing to stop you doing so, you just wont get placed anywhere as they differ so much to the 'show' type and will be judged against the current breed standard which is a far cry from where the breed started out. Ridiculous really when you think about it.


I should add though that a docked working ESS that was docked after the ban could not be eligible to be shown, unless showing off its working ability, dogs docked pre ban can be shown if you should wish to.

You can show any KC registered dog.

yes, I it seems that they can be shown, but as lalaland just stated, they wont get placed, which is rather rediculess as they are totally different, and should be judged accordingly....

mmm I've been giving it some thought, and I have come to a conclusion(maybe not the right one) that perhaps there are too many variances of the working ess to be able to give a correct guidelines as to how they should look for the show ring. what do you think?

I thought they could be shown after the ban, if docked legally with proper documentation from the vet, but cannot be shown at any show where the public pay an entrance fee?

I was dogsitting for a friends ESSs, and while two of hers are very different from the show type, one was much more similar. All lovely dogs, but I agree, they could be different breeds!

You could show a working type ESS, but it wouldn't get placed as they generally don't fit the breed standard. They're bred to perform a function with little regards as to how they conform to the breed standard.

It is possible to do both with either, however....

There are many show type ESS that are worked on shoots by their owners and perform well at working tests. Isla's Sire is a show ESS who is a full French Champion (passing a field trial is necessary when gaining a Champion title in France).

Did anyone see the ESS in the Game Keepers class that was on the Cruft's TV channel? That dog had a lot less coat, but was almost up to standard height and moved exactly as an ESS should. It was a joy to watch!

So it is possible to show a working ESS and work a show ESS, it's just that the majority of people are only interested in their own gains when breeding, rather than that of the breed itself.

Big pause before I begin as I know we've done this all before.........;-)

English Springer Spaniels are one of (if not the most) discussed breeds when it comes to the differences between a 'show' dog (what we see on crufts) and a 'working' gun dog (what we see in the field)

To answer your question - There's nothing preventing you from popping a typical 'working' Springer into the show ring but he'll not fair well against a 'show' Springer because the attributes they're looking for are those of a show dog rather the attributes bred for generations as being worthy of a Springer's role.

This is where I hit a wall I'm afraid.

Imagine four gundogs in a row against a show dog. The show dog will win the gundog group

As Rips says (and her Isla is a fab mix) there's nothing to prevent good gundogs and show dogs mixing it up but the facts are there. I can't be bothered checking back over the stats but the last time a Springer won significant awards for both it's love, desire and purpose (working) against showing was so long ago it isn't worth mentioning.

To me Springer Spaniels are working dogs and more to the point they are gundogs.

I could perhaps accept a crufty spotlight title along the lines of 'best KC standard met - showy version of a Springer' but to congratulate dogs in the ring as a 'gundog' baffles me.

Me too! But there's no reason why the dog has to look like a Springer crossed with a collie just to fulfill it's gundog heritage!

Did I mention Isla's Sire is a French Champion and has therefore won at shows and at field trials?!

For what it's worth, since the PDE programme, dogs with less coat appear to be favoured in the show ring. May be a blip, but I can hope!

Fingers crossed the wording "moderate feathering" is finally hitting home.......

I've been changing my post a bit ......

Yes, but 3 times?!

Either way you mean the same thing - dogs you see in the show ring aren't real gundogs to you.

What I know is that many of them are still capable of being gundogs, they just look different depending upon what the breeder wants from them.

The same applies to the working types.

The breed standard has changed very little over the years, that's the bottom line.

Symmetrically built, compact, strong, merry, active. Highest on leg and raciest in build of all British land Spaniels.

The reason more show types are able to work then working types are able to show is because the show types are far closer to the original breed standard (which includes working ability imo).

I never tire of this topic, especially with a fellow insomniac!

I'm guessing your spaniel X collie example is (not that my porky fingal fits) the lightweight spaniel which is proven as a fast flushing gundog.

It's a type (often rytex lines) that differ most of all from heavy show spaniels.

Indeed! And in my eyes those field trial bred ESS are just as bad as the severely heavy coated show types. Both take one part of the breed standard to an extreme to suit their breeders desire to get what they want - trophies!

NO No NO

That's the whole point.....

That 'type' have been selected by those who actually use Springers as gungogs to be the best gundogs.

As you say - they may be an extreme 'type' but they are are type chosen after years of gundog use to be the best Springer gundogs.

Do you not think the countryside would be full of 25KG Springers by now if they were better gundogs ???

Please dont fall into the trap of confusing breed standard Springers with the word Gundog.

Show Springers are not typical of what's been proven to work.

By all means 'show' your dogs but whilst we gundog Springer folk dont claim rights to invade your trophy's and pedigree chum contracts, accept you've no claim on our field qualities ;-)

They can be shown in gundog classes, they need to be signed off by a gamekeeper to say they have worked at least a full season, and then are judged on different criteria. Have to say its commendable that isla has done some work...... but i had a show dog a while ago on foster and he was 30kg + this dog was run on by the breeder for showing as he was a cracking example of the "breed standard" but had an undecended Testicle before being sold to the last owner who had to give him up because of a change in circumstances (yes the breeder was contacted before he came to us) The point i suppose i am making is that Harvey actually had no drive at all, he is 4 years old and just plodded on all day, wasn't interested in going into cover or anything like that, and to be fair most of the show ones have been like that.

My dogs are pets first, but 3 of them do work in the beating line during the season, i can't imagine any of the show ones doing a full days work.

Interesting and controversial thread!

How about a working type who is pretty and would probably be quite crap in the fields?

This is so like the working type show type debate in Beardies including the coat thing

to be honest its an ongoing debate, Pidge, how do you know he'd be crap in the field??? doesn't he have his nose to the floor out on walks?? Our first springer was bought as a pet , and in terms of gundog training we did it all wrong............ but she has that natural urge to find and flush birds and is one of the best dogs on our shoot,

Rips i haven't seen a show dog working up here, just lots of our little working friends

Just out of curiosity when you took Isla out what was the cover like?? was it crop?? or close brambles, this is the sort of stuff that we work up here



Its really tight and brambly, this was took towards the end of the season when it had all died down a bit, at the beginning we were all cut to ribbons, and i just imagine that the heavier feathered dogs would get caught up, even my close coated dogs have been known to get tails caught etc