Where Did White Come From in the GSD? Discussions

Just curious

White was there in the foundation of the breed (in a Dog called "Greif) he was the Grandfather of " Horand von Grafrath"...to whom all GSD's descend

Thanks xxx What breed was he?

He was known as a white coated shepherd Dog.
Nice bit of info here

Thanks Lorraine xxxxxx

You're welcome.....our Dogs aren't the rejects many make them out to be ;-)

there were many types of sheepdog used in the breeding programme at the beginning Hektor Linkerhein (Horand v Grafrath) was only listed as the 1st in the stud book beceause he was owned by von Stephanitz although not bred by him. For example were the type from Northern Germany (Holstein) which had a longer coat and predominately light yellow in colour, the you have Franz and Peter (before Horand) which were Black/yellow and black/red (termed black/tan today). There was also a grey/white and wire coated, brindle etc
The problem with whites is that very few dogs produced white, in the UK were inbred on a limited number such has progeny from Vello who produced whites, unfortunately he also produced the mutation that carried epilepsy. Some also have very poor pigmentation which would not be allowed by those that breed the White Shepherd dog as they must have black nose, lips, nails etc

"The German Shepherd Dog Mores Plieningen, SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath (previously known as Hektor Liksrhein) and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every German Shepherd Dog in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoological Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early German Shepherd Dog line."

As far as I can remember from reading a copy of Von Stephanitz's book "The German Shepherd Dog in Word & Picture", published in 1923, Mores Plieningen, who was quarter wolf, was white.

Thanks everyone, interesting subject for me xxx

I don't think white GSDs are rejects. I love the longer coated ones xxxx

I always believed that whites were there at the beginning, but didn't know the ins and outs of it, so have found this thread very interesting.

Sorry, just registered this. I know there is controversy ref the 'suggestion' of wolf content.

There is indeed, but I managed to get my hands on a copy of the original studbook ... the unadulterated one ... which is in the States. I wasn't allowed to copy it, or make notes from it, but the facts are there plain to see. You can buy a copy on Amazon, but unfortunately I can't afford it at present, but when I can I am going to buy one. Unless Von Stephanitz was lying, Hektor/Horand was a quarter wolf.

Thanks for the info xxxx

von Stephanitz stated that 'Mores-Plieningen had as her great-grandsire one of the so called wolf-dogs of Burgersch, which breed was the result of a cross in about the year 1881 between a she-wolf and an Alsatian dog with tipped ears' Swiss Canine Journal - Centralblatt 30/01/1903 no mention of her being white and as you can see the cross is further back.

I would imagine the early breeders/breeders of the foundation breeds/dogs were less concerned with looks and more into working ablity. I know that white can turn up in several breeds (unexpectedly) and I suscpect if a white dog was as good as a black and gold he/she would be retained and reproduce.

Re the wolf. I've always assumed there must be wolf in many breeds. After all wolves were still around in many parts of europe until recently (in terms of previouse centurys) ad if you wanted a large high drive dog (which working dog breeders wanted) dog it would make sense to cross in wolf. I assume the same applies to many northern breeds as well.

Of course if you go back far enough all dogs have some wolf in them lol.

Adam

as it happens, the shih tzu has moRe wolf than the GSD

Absolutely, you are quite correct. You only have to look at certain breeds ... which I am not going to mention here in order to avoid creating a controversy and going off-thread ... to know that within the last 100 or less pure wolf was bred into the lines.

Krusewalker - that is very interesting about the shih tzu, I did not know that. Our elderly neighbour used to have shih tzu's ... when we moved in 22 years ago, she had 5 of them. Lovely little dogs they were. She now lives in an old folks home, so next time I go to see her, I will tell her, I am sure she will be fascinated to know. Another lady I know who used to breed Shuba Inu's (spelling?) told me that the Japanese Akita was bred from crossing Shuba's with wolves ... does anyone know if this is true?

(Apologies for going off topic but I am intrigued to know )

i dont know about that, but the shiba inu and akita inu are also of the ancient breeds with the most wolf DNA.

perhaps this was what my friend was referring to. How very fascinating ... this wolf connection no doubt accounts for why both breeds are definitely very wolfy looking, particularly the akita. Thanks for the correction of my spelling too ... I never can remember whether its shuba unu, or shiba uno, or what!!

tis true about the wolfy look, but then you have the lhaso, shih tzu and basenji and peke

yet the 'wolfy' shepherd is relatively new