When do you make "the" decision Controversial

There has recently been a rather heated discussion on the Epilepsy List regarding when people consider it is time to make "the" decision. Unfortunately the discussion started by someone quoting a dog breeder who wanted all puppies euthanised immediately after having one seizure. The breeder in question refused to accept that his/her dogs were passing on epilepsy in their lines, but just stated that in their opinion all epileptic dogs should be euthanised "because they have no quality of life".

Needless to say this comment distressed more than a few people and the subject has now been closed and banned on what is, after all, a support group for owners of epileptic dogs.

When is it time to make "the" decision? Not because a dog has problems which affect your social life, or because things like epilepsy are very hard to cope with, but when you know that it is time to release your beloved dog from their earthly bodies?

There are many sites which tell you when, in their opinion, it is time. List upon list of things to tick off... but when the time comes there is only one person who knows, only one person who can make that decision, and that is you. The person who has loved and cared for your beloved pet for all his/her life.

I have an epileptic dog who probably has some brain damage now due to severe seizures, but when she is not having bad episodes she is happy, she is probably not much different to any other dog although I accept that she is not the same as she was before the epilepsy struck. But epileptic or not she is 100% healthy. Healthy, happy, loving - what more could I ask for?

I know that one day maybe she will not come out of a seizure - or she will come out of it but when I look at her beautiful eyes I see nothing there.

And maybe that will be "the" time for her and for me to make "the" decision.

May that day be a long time in coming.

I have at to make that decision 4 times, the first time was when my dog lost the use of his back legs (before the wheels came in) the 2nd dog was riddled with cancer & I did not want to prolong her life as she was never going to be cured, the 3rd dog had a brain injury & didn't have any quality of life, the 4th dog Prince a lovely Collie X Afghan went crazy (senile) he would sit rocking to/fro then head butt the wall, he would attack us if we walked pass his basket & would only walk round in circles.

I am dreading the time when Dottie hole in heart gets bigger & she as to rely on meds to keep her alive, as me & my hubby will have to disgust whether it be kinder to let her go, vet as said she could be between 14- 16 years old before she be needing meds.

When my beloved M'boi was in hospital having developed peritonitis due to an internal injury, the vet called me to ask whether she should be PTS or whether they should operate to try and save her life. As I couldn't have made the decision to have her PTS whilst there was still the remotest chance of her surviving, I told them to go ahead and operate. She died on the operating table as I knew she might, but at least I had the consolation of knowing I'd done everything in my power to save her.

My last two PTS were a Spike, a17 year old Lowchen - bodily so fit, all his teeth clean and white - but he had completely lost the plot. If he lay down he couldn't remember how to get up and would end up thrashing around like an upturned beetle.
Mia Lurcher was 14 and had a tumour on her heart with fluid build up in the pericardium which led to her passing out. She had it drained through the chest twice, but it was only taking 7 days to refill, and we felt that we were just keeping her going for selfish reasons.
There are far worse fates than a kind and gentle death, and I would like to think that my decisions have been based on what I would wish for myself in the same circumstances. It is a difficult judgement, but our heart and the dog's eyes will usually provide the answer.

For me it's always been quite a straightforward decision. I have never had to make the decision in your circumstances or for a dog that is on a steady decline. I think both those circumstances must be quite tricky to call in all honesty. It's never an easy decision but sometimes the choice is obvious. For me it's always been obvious. I've only had 3 pts in all my years of dog ownership, 2 of which were in the past 9 months.
Dudley my Boxer was 13 physically as fit as a flea and apart from breaking his neck as a puppy never suffered a days illness in his life. One day he had multiple strokes and although he was still standing and seemed fine physically he was no longer there, he had tiny flashes of recognition but was beyond recovery at that age it was a simple decision to pts that night and I had no doubts or regrets.
Syd my male Dobermann was only 8 when he developed bone cancer and it was a shock. Not only was he fit as a flea he had such a zest for life. I told the vet what I thought it was, he agreed, we xrayed and I requested the vet to check the xray while he was still under GA and if our diagnosis was correct I wanted him to go without ever suffering or knowing he was ill. The vet was a bit taken aback but after much discussion he agreed. So from developing a limp one day that didn't even bother him he was gone a week later. I know I did the right thing and my only regret centres around losing him so young.
Rio my female Dobermann again was only 8 when she developed some rare form of oral cancer, she again was highly fit and active but started having trouble with eating bones initially. I took her to the vet thinking she'd possibly broken a tooth and the vet assumed it was age related dental issues. Due to being 8 he took bloods before booking her in for a dental under GA. The bloods raised a few questions but nothing major, did a full urine analysis and again nothing major. Put her under GA and was shocked to find her entire palate covered in huge ulcers and the x ray revealed the bone in the roof of her mouth was very thin etc. He took biopsy's for testing and we then had the longest week of our lives till the diagnosis came back no option other than pts.

Ive never experienced having a dog with epilepsy so cant comment on it, as already said its down to individual choice and we have to put ‘our feelings and attachment aside and think of the dogs quality of life, not easy but one ive had to make several times over the years..

My beautiful girl has CDM,and ill have to make the decision sooner rather than later , it really upsets me to see her like this, although she’s as bright as a button, still mobile & soldiering on though unsteady at times, she has boots to wear when out but I personally wouldn't consider a cart’ so when the day comes when she can no longer get up and about ,ill let her go with dignity.

I agree with Meg.

It is always an extremely difficult decision to end a life - especially when that life is one that means so much to you, but for me quality of life is one of the important factors and whether the dog is in pain (and whether that can be effectively controlled or not).

It would be so much easier on us, if our companions could all die of old age, peacefully in their sleep - but it seems to so rarely happen that way.

That is what my Little One did. She was not old, she was not ill, she was not in pain, she was not suffering. She just went to sleep one night cuddled up to me and only woke me at ~4.30am to say Goodbye - her little heart had already stopped but she was still "in" there until I got the torch from under my pillow and shone it on her - and watched the light go out of her beautiful eyes.

Pereg is definitely not in pain from her seizures because she is totally unaware of them. But I have to accept that there might be a time when she does not come out of a seizure or the brain damage they have caused will have destroyed normal life for her.

If - when - if - that happens... well I know what my decision is now. But will I be able to carry out that decision should the time come, or would I want just one more day, one more cuddle, one more hope that she might yet bounce back again.

At the moment I honestly do not know.

Aww that brought a tear to my eye about Little One It must have been a bit of a shock to find her already away, especially as she wasn't old or ill.

My Flame is now 12 and a half and is getting weak on her back end, and I know the dreaded decision won't be a long way off - but while she still enjoys short walks, her food and cuddles, and she isn't in any pain, she isn't going anywhere.

Brownie was 15 years old when he developed a huge knot on the top of his face. The chance of saving him with the cancer at that stage was extremely low even with treatment. It was terminal otherwise as it was totally inoperable because of it's location. Had him put down that day.

Was the right decision 100% and I don't regret a thing. He was a very old dog and there was no chance of recovery, no point in taking him home alive and prolonging his suffering. He passed out with the first injection, and it was all peaceful from there.

When a dog is only a ghost of his former self, and can't do things he used to be able to do... it's often time to let go. Jade is 11 and though her arthritis sometimes acts up and her hip hurts... she is still a happy dog and enjoys her old life. She gets out with Nigredo and I when she is feeling up to it and she stays inside and gets to snuggle with people when she is not.

You can learn to live with a bit of pain. You don't always want to die because you're in pain. My mother has horrible pain sometimes from nasty lumbar arthritis but she'd NEVER want to trade her life for her pain, and I think dogs are somewhat the same way. Jade gets up, even on her bad days and she slowly hops up and put her paws on you to say hello with a wag and a big smile.

When a dog is constantly limping, whining/crying and can no longer enjoy his life... yes it's time to let him go. But if he seems like a generally happy dog, especially in old age... I think it's cruel to put him down because he has some pain. Old dogs and people often have to live with pain, doesn't mean they need to be put down.

I did meet a guy at the vet when I went with Nigredo. He had a 17 year old GSD that really was in awful pain. Could no longer walk, severe arthritis. Had to be carried everywhere and cried when you held him a certain way. The owner (a very large elderly man) couldn't bear to put the dog down. Selfish yes, but I clearly saw a loved dog and distraught owner. The man was crying and the dog was trying to hard to get up and make him feel better, but could not.

The vet knew he'd not be able to convince the man to let the dog go, so he told the man to greatly over medicate the dog to reduce his pain. It will destroy the dog's liver, but it will greatly reduce his pain. At that age and in that much pain, the trade off is worth it if the owner won't let the dog go. So sad to see,

My mantra on this is simple. , if the dog is having more bad days than good ones it's time to let them go. , regardless of how good the good days are. I also have to ask myself who am I doing this for , and the answer is always going to be me , and I think if we are honest with ourselves , it will alwAys be the above , we keep our dogs going for selfish reasons we can't bare to be without them , this is ok as long as we can keep them pain free and they have light in their eyes , Bandit the decision was taken out of our hands , although we had decided enough was enough . Millie was our decision I could not sit and watch her suffering day to day.. Although in between she was as happy as she ever was, I decided one morning when she had a particularly bad day she was not going to go through another.

It's a horrible decision for anyone to make, but it is made easier if we do it sooner than later for the right reasons .

Im crying now from reading the post and thinking about the end for Phoebe. I cant even bare to think about a day she isnt here. I know i wouldnt try and treat a sever illness at her age i just hope i will be strong enough and selfless enough to do it if the time comes. All of our dogs have died ive never had a dog that has been pts. Lucy was the most heartbreaking as she was only a year old and banged her head when playing then we saw her eyes had blood in them so took her the vets. The vet spent 2 days trying to save her even took her home at night sleeping next to her bed but it was all in vain. The vet said she must have been a hymiphiliac but as shed been spayed im not sure how we didnt already know. She was a westie with characture ive never before seen and such jest for life. She was so fun to have around. Ceaser had a heart condition and died in my arms, cleo was found dead a few months ago in dads garden but she was old so we had been waiting. Wolf died of bloat last year and nearly tipped my brother over the edge, he still blames himself. Tyson was stolen so no idea what happened to him. Peapod died in my arms she was one of cleos puppies i tried hand rearing as she pushed it out and wouldnt take it back. I lasted 4 days hand rearing her with her living inside my jumper, night feeds the works but it didnt work and it just broke my heart when she died. My mum really worries about when phoebe goes and is trying to prepare me as shes not sure ill cope.

In all the years there were some decisions that had to be made but in each case it was the kindest thing for the dog even though not for me.

Pereg is, somehow, different. And the thought of seeing the light go out of her eyes is and being the cause of it is, at the moment, the thing of nightmares.

I don't have a plan in place because each of them has been different, I can't even say that once they have more bad days than good because that's never been the case. Syd was difficult in one way and easy in another. He wasn't in pain, he wasn't suffering, he was still running around like a looney but the simple fact was I had to act before he was in pain and suffering, probably the first sign would have been his leg snapping, so as hard as it was to let him go, I had to do it before that happened. It could have been a day, a week or possibly a month early, there was no way of knowing but better a month early than a minute late in my opinion.

It is a cruel fact that in trying to do the best we can for a sick dog, we develop an even greater attachment. Inevitably we set ourselves up for heart wrenching decisions, and even greater pain when we are forced to admit our failure to make them well. Why do we continue to go through it again and again? Because the companionship of dogs is an addiction people like us cannot give up, and the joy of the good years greatly outweighs the heartache of parting. At least all our animals have someone who cares enough to decide on their best interests, a luxury denied to millions of dogs worldwide.

Well I never regretted NOT having my Loki pts when it was diagnosed that she suffered epilepsy. She rallied round after taking 39 in two days on one occasion and 40 on another, and other times about 20 is 3-4 days. Someone once told me to have her pts. The way I looked at it - we wouldn't put humans down if they suffered epilepsy.

I had 8 wonderful years with Loki, she was one in a million and so very loving and loved life and everyone and everyone loved her.

Regrettably, I had to make that decision 2 weeks ago because the meds she was on took their toll on her liver. She couldn't get up and I called the vet on the Tuesday and he came up on the Thursday (two weeks now past on Thursday). I held her head whilst he shaved her leg - her tail was, as always, wagging. He gave her the injection and 3 gasps later, Loki had gone to the Rainbow Bridge.

I hated making that call, but it was time. Loki had a good life and I have and never will regret not having her pts because of epilepsy - by doing that then the epilepsy would have won. These past 4 years, her fits went down to only one back in January. She was on two 60 mgs of Phenobarbitones morning and evenings, and one 325 mgs of Potassium Bromide mornings and evenings.

Loki was a lively dog and loved running up in the field we went to with her toys.

I miss her loads.

Rose, I also miss Loki even though I only "knew" her from Dogsey and from all the wonderful photographs of her, and yes, she had a good life even though it had to be cut short. But the epilepsy did not win, did it, as it did not take her. It is a fine balance between medication for the seizures and the risk of liver damage, and without the medication... who knows.

I count myself lucky in that the Pb has not caused any liver problems for Pereg, but no doubt the Milk Thistle, SAMe and Taurine have helped keep her liver in good shape. In fact she had another blood test just two days ago and her levels were spot-on perfect. Liver, kidneys, pancreas [the last one as she had a very bad bout of pancreatitis last year]. We will not get the blood plasma Pb levels until Monday or Tuesday as that has to be done at a specialist outside laboratory.

But - Ram is very pleased with her even though she has gained a lot of weight since this last series of episodes started, so she is on a very strict diet yet again. He also does not think that she shows any signs of brain damage, just that it takes her a very long time to get over each episode, and as she is not on Kbr she has no ataxia at all.

It is the broken nights and the uncertainty - was that sound, that movement, the start of a seizure? But we cope, Pereg and I. And will continue to do so until it really is "that" time. My Dogsey signature says it all really...
- - -
The love I have for Pereg
And the love she has for me
Keep me going

Life without her would be easier
But then
It would be
So boring
- - -

Yes, Loki had a great life, Malka. I also gave Loki a milk thistle capsule, the strongest one sold. It did fine but not enouh. The meds went for her in the end. I have no regrets though not having her pts when epilepsy was first diagnosed.

That's good to hear that Pereg is on milk thistle and the others to counteract any damage.

Just wish there was something I could take to take away the pain and the tears. I miss her so much!

Take care xx