Utonagans again - why are rescues been advertised as available to breed? Questions

Sorry to bring this up again but I am not clear if there are any Ute committee people on here or not.

If there are...please explain to me why there are rescue Utes being advertised as available for breeding? Even those with *breed faults* (according to the standard on the web page) ie one dog with soft ears is available for breeding as long as it is to a bitch without them!

One is advartised as having a snow nose so must be put with a dog without a snow nose! What ARE they talking about? Do they know what a snow nose is?

This is NOT an attack on the Ute ...more a wake up call to the committee and breeders of these dogs. This sort of thing really will not help your cause at all Rescue dogs, especially those with faults, should be rehomed as neutered!

http://www.takoya-utonagan.co.uk/Ute Rescue.htm

I'm not a member of the Ute commitee Mel, but I do know that the society DO NOT agree with breeding Utes with known faults.

The whole point of setting up the society is to breed the Ute to a true standard, not to have people breeding with known faults.

I do hope that something is done about this :-(

Thanks for that , maybe you can contact someone on the committee possibly?

Will do Mel, I'll use the link you provided if you don't mind.

Yup, thought they should know it ..I think it is their page lol

I know what you mean Mel.

Though realistically I think maybe the gene pool is still to small to only breed from breed standard perfect dogs and in an ideal world, for looks, only breed standard dogs would be used at this point in time but with health in mind maybe it isn't such a sin to breed from a dog with a small fault if they feel it can be balanced to a bitch with qualities that will outweigh the fault? and then aim for future perfection rather than right now which they may not be ready for.

As for snownose I don't know why that would be an issue anyway. They must be talking about a permanent lack of pigmentation on the nose and calling it snow nose. Either way not big issues in the grand scheme of things if the dog was otherwise perfect. Health must be the main concern.

The pic with the dog with the snow nose looks like it has some Lab in it (or is that coz I had to much vino last night )

I think they may be confused over the term snow nose. The dog with the drop ears on that link doesn't have snow nose but faded nose pigment that is associated with his coat colour.

By allowing this type of solid white in the standard, faded pigment is going to be inevitable. Also surprised to see snow nose is actually a fault by their standard. This is also inevitable with the predominating colour pattern 'domino' in the breed.

Definitely agree with Mys that health should be the priority over minor points that are just aesthetic and what would really worry me about this breed is the breed mean hip score of 27. This is considerably higher than the founder breeds. Only 14 dogs so far recorded so there could be a significant skew if one or two individuals have very high scores but still worrying considering this is a breed modelled on the natural construction of a wild animal.

My thoughts only...

The Utonagan people shouldn't feel the need to push that the dogs are to 'type' yet. I think there is pressure from the dog world people in that unless they can say that they are ready for kc recognition and they have fully achieved the standard within their breed that the 'cross breed' and 'mongrel' tag will continue to be placed on the dogs. I think there still is variation of type and I think it is ok to say that there is. Breeds need time to evolve. We need to be patient. They are still pure bred...Just need more time. So long as the general public knows this and the breeders are honest about what stage they are at I think there is no problem. But I think it is pressure that causes there to be to much of a rush. I respect the Utonagan and the stage they are at right now. Give them time.

and I will say the same thing about the NI to some extent also.

Variation in type is no bad thing. It's present in all breeds to some degree.

I think to carry on the road of trying to improve aesthetics like nose pigment, which isn't actually possible without changing the allowable coat colours, is not going to help the situation on hip status or other health problems within the breed.

From what I understand, though I could be wrong, the breed register is closed, ie no new blood will be introduced, so the gene pool is effectively closed. If the breed mean hip score doesn't steadily improve as more dogs are scored, I would suggest reviewing the closed register status.

I think this is an old site you've found? I looked on Nadia's Official Utonagan Rescue Site and it says Mikko has been re-homed.

http://www.utonagan-rescue.com/



As for the faults I agree with what the others have said so far. Perhaps some (the other society that is no longer functioning) were a little over-enthusiastic in their beliefs (an impression that I was certainly given but came to think again). I do think things will take much longer then originally anticipated, especially as there were more splits etc. and I do think that health problems need to be worked at.

why is KC recognition so important anyway?
i was researching a while back into the northern inuits, and was a bit annoyed to hear that some people would have a litter of 6 dogs and 4 were discarded as pets that couldn't be bred from, and the others who looked 'wolf' like were kept to be bred from. Obviously this is how most breeds start out, making them 'breed true to type' and all that, but am i the only one in the world that finds this ludicrous? The most wolf like pups are not necessarily the healthiest or the best temperaments, but then we are breeding for looks aren't we... and breeding out health and longevity.

The other annoying thing is all these dogs that look like wolves, how can you have a true to type? Wolves come in pure white to pure black, and all the colours in between...

Can someone start a breeding program to breed only for health regardless of what they blinkin look like!?!

Hi Jess...

I believe that health has always been the main concern...but on the 'face' of things I believe that Ute breeders / admirers have felt they have to push the 'bred to standard' and kc recognition for them to be taken seriously. For some people they will just remain cross breeds and mongrels until they can see there is a specific type. They arn't that and I can see why people have pushed talk of recognition etc in an attempt to shrug off some of the labels placed on the dogs.

Patience will be the Utonagans best friend and I don't think anyone is in anyrush as regards to recognition or said that the Utes are ready just yet. They are a breed still in the making and need to be given plenty of time.

I agree with you Jess about variation of type and the fact that wolves vary...so colour and markings should vary. Floppy ears and curly tails of course are something you don't see in wolves and these arn't desired so of course breeders will do what they can to avoid faults like these BUT while the gene pool is still small it's not such a sin to bring in the odd curly tail for example if the dog otherwise fits standard and is matched to a bitch without that fault.

We just need to know where the Utonagan is at and not rush them.

Good post Mys and exactly how I see things.

If there is another record base of hip scores that aren't listed with the BVA then possibly yes, hips status has been monitored. But that leaves the question, why is the mean score so high? If there had been no monitoring of hips, ie breeding from non scored, or any dog regardless of hip status, then you would expect the Ute mean to be somewhere in between the founder breeds' mean. GSDs are 19, Sibes 7 and Malamutes 12. Obviously, depending on chance and varying influence of particular dogs, the Ute breed mean should be in the low to mid teens by my estimations.

With only 14 scores recorded with the BVA it appears that hip status hasn't featured in the selection for health in the founder dogs and the breed has been extremely unlucky to have it's base in dogs of poor hip genotype.

I take it that this means the register is still open ie still allowing new blood from other breeds? If not, the gene pool will remain small.

I just had a look for the hip scores...They are public on the Utonagan forum. Here is a snap shot. I believe there was quite a high scorer which threw the balance off.

Please don't take anything as gospel from me everything I say is in my opinion only. I don't breed or own Utonagans Just sharing my opinion but I'm no authority on the matter :smt023

Well, depends on your definition of old I suppose From the site: Updated 11th July 2006

Yep that's pretty recent

Thanks Mys. Thats interesting, the mean of those scores is 11 which is much more like the expected. I've also found a website where it says two litter mates scored 106 and 100.

The BVA figures are calculated on scores up until January this year so obviously there are new ones on the table you gave. Altogether this brings the mean down to 20 so looks as if those two could just be anomalies. Certainly hope so for the breed.