Tri merle borer collies Questions

Hi there i am new on this site and i would like some help please. i have just got a tri merl border collie puppie and i have been reading that they can have problems due to both perents being merls. one of the other puppies had small eye. is there any known problems with tris. he has five toes on his back feet if there is any one who knows about merls i would be greatfull for the help
thanks

hi there,

by five toes do you mean he has dew claws (like thumbs - slightly higher up the leg)? if so it would be worth speaking to the vet as depending on how far they stick out it may be worth having them removed to prevent them tearing.our

merle to merle matings can result in deaf/blind pups so it would be worth also raising these points with your vet.

welcome to dogsey

xx

Small eyes from a merle to merle mating is not uncommon, and is often indicating of being CEA Affected so if that`s the case, [ which my instincts are suggesting is likely ], then it means the sire and dam were not dna tested for CEA, [ and probably for nothing else either ], and breeders who put merle to merle are insidious anyway because such matings do so often result in problems like this and deafness as Kicks has said.
The fact that the breeder you got pup from has`nt made you aware of these things speaks volumes about them, [ and not in a good way ].

I strongly urge you to have pup tested for CEA, [ Collie Eye Anomaly ], and PRA - PRA is progressive Retinal Atrophy and leads to blindness over a period of time, and would test for TNS also. If pup is affected or a carrier of any of these then the dam and / or sire are carriers as well.

What colour was his parent's?.

Both merles ZB

I can't believe people put merles to merles. It's the biggest no no. Only one reason in my mind money, and these breeders to be avoided at all costs. Agree with Patch they won't have bothered to have any health tests done, and I doubt the parents were either.

I am not sure if both parents are merles or weather the poster has just been reading about the problems with merle to merle breeding?
It isnt totally clear from the first posting.
Have to agree there is no reason to do such a mating with all the health issues that can be involved for the poor puppies produced.

my friend had a double merle, he had odd sized eyes, odd sized ears ,one leg shorter than the other & a club foot. He could see & hear ok,he died at around 3 from heart problems, although a REALLY lovely dog ,very giving ,he did have stamina problems his whole life. He didnt "look" like a typical double merle either, he was a very "dark" merle rather than alot of white.

small eyes does not indicate CEA. You cannot tell if a dog has CEA just by looking, the diagnosis can only be made by an opthalmologist. The smaller eyes occur in double merles because they are double merles along with a whole list of other problems:-( PRA in collies does not show itself until later, around 12-18 months of age, this is why the ISDS require an eye test at 2 years of age, the only test available is the same as checking for CEA affected, PRA is thankfully not that common in collies. If the pup is not affected with CEA the fact that it may be a carrier is neither here nor there if it is not to be bred from. If the pup is affected with TNS then it will not survive unfortunately.:-( It is not clear though whether both the parents of this pup were merles???

Never heard of small eyes being a sign of CEA, puppies from non DNA tested parents should be screened for CEA before 12 weeks as CEA can go right.

No point in testing for PRA before 2 years of age & it can occur at virtually anytime in a dog's life(there was an ISDS dog that developed PRA at over 10-it was tested when it ran at the International(compulsory)after it's 10th birthday)

CEA of course can be diagnosed by DNA(the only foolproof way)at virtually any time in it's life over the age of 3/4 weeks.

TNS if the puppy was affected it will be come apparent before the dog getting much older

No BC/Rough/Smooth Collie or Shetland sheepdog should be bred from without being DNA tested for any of the genetic conditions the breed is affected by. Plus a current clear clinical eye test for PRA & being hip scored(of course)

I diud`nt explain very well sorry, was in a bit of a rush. No small eyes does`nt mean CEA, its just often indicative of a possible problem, I should have separated CEA from the specifics of the small eye`s element.

I`m assuming the OP means the tri pup is from merles because of the question about double merles and mentioning that one of the other pups, [ presumably from the same litter as the Tri ], has one or both small eyes.

I`m assuming the question is if there are likely to be health issues for the tri specifically because of the parentage.

Suggesting DNA to see if CEA carrier or affected and if a TNS carrier was more to confirm or not if the parents are carriers themselves as anyone breeding merles together is highly unlikely to have bothered testing them because they are already putting dogs together which is about the biggest no no going for BC breeding.

can we see a piccy of your puppy please

Aussies should also be tested.
Have covered my rushed error re CEA in my other post.

The OP has not indicated if the tri is possible to be bred from but if yes then all the tests including to make sure pup is not a TNS carrier are vital. [ As you know its affecteds which die, not carriers...].

If the DNA tests are done at the relevant times at least the owner will know if the pup is clear or not considering the breeders were idiotic enough to put merle to merle if that is indeed what the OP means with the mention of another pup having small eyes which I took to have been from the same litter and the fact that the OP is specifically asking about a merle to merle mating.

Micropthalmia isn't confined to merle to merle though or breeds that carry the merle gene so we really need the OP to confirm what she is infact saying. Weather the litter was infact merle to merle or that she was reading about merle to merle as her pup is merle with tri markings.

hi there thanks for all your replys the mum was a stable merle and the dad was a red merle i will put a pic on hear for you

my profile pic in the is the puppie

aww do u know how to put full size pic in?

no sorry how do you do that

Is it not Micropthalmia (sp?) where they have a small eye?

It is yep, I ran straight from CEA to Micropthalmia instead of separating the two conditions, my fault for rushing while multitasking