How difficult are CKCS to toilet train?

My friend and I got our pups a couple of weeks apart, hers is one week older than mine at 18 weeks, he is a CKCS.
She is having a lot of difficulty toilet training him. I know that different dogs have different rates at which they learn, but she is concerned as my pup has been going outside for poos for just over a month and is making real progress widdling outside.

Her pup hasn't really made much progress at all :-(

We spoke last week and she sounded very despondent saying she doesn't think they'll ever get him toilet trained, and that because CKCS have small badders he'll never be able to hold it through the night, is this correct?!?! I encouraged her saying he's young yet etc.

Do any CKCS owners have any words of wisdom I can pass on?

Thanks

My CKCS was the easiest dog I've ever toilet trained. The basic rules apply: first thing in the morning, after each meal/big drink/play session etc. Take them outside to designated spot, when they do go use your chosen word for us it's "do wee wee", then once the job has been completed give lots of praise. Sometimes you can be standing outside for 10/15 minutes at a time and on one occasion before bed I was out there for 30 minutes, but eventually she went, there was lots of praise, cuddles and treat - she soon cottoned on.

As for going through the night, depending on the time of the last drink and last wee before bed, Poppy can go for roughly 8/9 hours. I must admit I do allow access to water through the night and sometimes, particularly in the summer this can result in us having to go downstairs to let her out at around 3am, but I'm happy to do this.

They used puppy pads initially and he did use them to pee, but he won't go in the garden at all.

I think the problam may be that he has puppy pads in the living room, right beside the door whenre he can get out, and in the kitchen where he sleeps.

I don't know for sure that they're causing problems, and I don't want to come across as a know it all, as I'm far from it, buut I hate telling her what my pups up to, incase it sounds like bragging!

I have read a lot about people having trouble trouble housebreaking puppies. I never have had much trouble. So one day I did a search. Every one of the first 10 hits left out something I consider important such as going out with the dog, using a command, praising it, and crating it when you can't watch it. With every site on the net filled with inexperienced people giving lousy advice, no wonder so many people have trouble.

Why don't you talk over what you are doing with her?

I don't have a garden, so we used the puppy pads, but as soon as the injections were out the way we took him out as often as poss.

We have spoken about what we may be doing differently- but it's quite different and her husband was quite rude to me when I was just trying to be helpful.

I just thought maybe CKCS maybe took a little longer than other dogs as she seems to think?

I didn't belive it when she said they could never be fully house trained, if that was the case surely they'd be very unpopular?

Ive had Cavvies for nearly 16 years and am now on number 3 (two at the same time for a while and number 2, is living with my ex, just in case you are trying to work out the numbers )

I have found that they can be a bit lazy in the toilet department and the dog that lives with my ex is known as 'Daisy-bones' for that very reason.

They seem to need extremely consistent routines, one place to go, a command if possible, and Ive taught my Alfie to ring the bell on a cat collar which is threaded through my back door key so he can tell me he wants out. (clicker trained). It took me about 6 months to get him reliable and even now if its raining I might end up with a poo on the carpet. (Hes now 2 and a half) They dont like rain much, so that might not be helping at the moment.

Puppy pads will just be so confusing, the pup wont know which pad to go on, which room, etc, so will just not have clear consistent 'rules' to follow.

I also use a crate at night, always have done, its Alfies bed, its behind the sofa with a fleece blanket over the top, fav toy to snuggle up to and he will take himself off to bed quite happily. It just helped a bit in the beginning to establish a routine.

So really she just has to percivere and be consistent?

Only if she is using good technique.

Much of housebreaking is not training the puppy, but making it easier for your puppy, you, and your carpet while its body to catches up to its instincts. At around 8 weeks when the puppy goes to its new home, the time from when it realizes it has to go, and when it can't wait any longer is a matter of seconds. Only time will fix that. You can hardly be expected to be attentive enough to avoid all accidents. There is no sense punishing the puppy for your inattention. It is not fair to punish you either, but you still have to clean it up if you didn't have the puppy outside in time.

Housebreaking starts before you get home with the new puppy. If you don't have a crate, buy one. I prefer the more enclosed, den like plastic ones. Skip the bedding. At first it gets wet, and later it can be chewed into choking hazards. A wire grid in the bottom will help keep the puppy up out of accidents at first. They are available with the crates, but expensive and hard to find. A piece of closely spaced wire closet shelving from a home supply place is cheaper. I am now using a plastic vegetable bin with plenty of holes drilled in the bottom. It helps block off part of the crate for the smaller puppy. If you already have a metal crate, covering it may help. Just make sure you use something the puppy can't pull in and chew. Dogs that start out in crates as little puppies, accept them very well. Never leave an unattended puppy loose in the house. If nobody can watch it, put it in the crate. I suggest letting the dog have its crate all its life. A crate needs to be just big enough for a dog to stretch out in.

Choose a command and spot you want it to use. The less accessible to strays, the less chance of serious disease. If it is a female, choosing a non grassy spot will avoid brown spots later. When you bring it home, take it to the spot and give it the command in a firm, but friendly voice. Keep repeating the command and let the puppy sniff around. Sometimes you need to walk it around to stimulate its body to eliminate. If it does anything, praise it. Really let it know what a good dog it is and how much you love it, and maybe a treat. Note, being out there not only means you can praise it, but it also keeps it from being snatched by a hawk. If it doesn't go, take it inside and give it a drink and any meals scheduled. A young puppy will need to go out immediately afterward. Go to the spot and follow the above routine. Praising it if it goes is extremely important. If it doesn't go, take it back inside and put it in its crate and try again soon. Do not let it loose in the house until it does go.

At first it is your responsibility to know and take the puppy out when it needs to go. It needs to go out the first thing in the morning, after eating, drinking, and sleeping. If it quits playing, and starts running around sniffing, it is looking for a place to go. Take it out quickly. You will just have to be what I call puppy broke until it is a little older. How successful you are depends on how attentive you are.

By the time most dogs are about 3 months old, they have figured out that if they go to the door and stand, you will let them out. The praise slowly shifts to going to the door. Some people hang a bell there for the dog to paw. If your dog doesn't figure this out, try praising it and putting it out if it even gets near the door. When you catch it in the act, give it a sharp ''Ah, ah, ah!'' and take it out. Clean up accidents promptly. I mostly keep the little puppies out of the carpeted rooms. Still I need the can of carpet foam sometimes. First blot up all the urine you can with a dry towel. Keep moving it and stepping on it until a fresh area stays dry. A couple big putty knives work well on bowel movements. Just slide one under it while holding it with the other. This gets it up with a minimum of pushing it down into the carpet. This works with even relatively soft ones, vomit, dirt from over turned house plants, or anything else from solids to thick liquids. Finish up with a good shot of carpet foam. Note, do not let the puppy lick up the carpet foam. Once the dog is reliably housebroken, your carpet may need a good steam cleaning.

Many people strongly strongly push cleaning up all evidence of past accidents. I am slower to suggest that. Dogs will return to the same spot if they can find it. When you see one sniffing the spot, that is your clue to run it out.

Hi Littlewolf

This is what I did (and I've copied it from another thread I participated in today ... link:http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=115550&page=2&highlight=be clean)

This is what I did:

I routinely took him to a designated 'toilet' place in the garden at regular intervals (around 30 mins or so to begin with) and gave a command (your choice, I used "be clean"). I didn't reprimand if he didn't got but gave lots of reward if he did - treats and LOTS of praise in a happy, squeaky voice . I repeated this at intervals of around 30 minutes but also after games, food, sleep, periods of excitement, etc. and if he seemed to be sniffing/circling.

I wouldn't make a fuss over accidents indoors, although if you find the pup about to go, you can say, "ah-ah" or something, pick him up and quickly take him outside to his toilet area and go through with the above (and hope you make it outside in time )..

It doesn't happen instantly but it will happen if you are patient and persevere.

Good luck with it all.

(I read that cleaning any soiled area with a solution of biological washing powder helps to get rid of any smell that might entice the puppy to soil there again.)

I hope your friend doesn't take the advice of one poster to stick the puppy in a crate with no bedding.:-(

^^^ What Luckystar said

It sounds like you are either going to have to let them get on with it, if the are totally not willing to accept your help, or just do it by stealth and repeat endlessly how you are doing it.

A wire grid !! A MUCH better option is to buy a quantity of vet bed (some really reasonable sellers from ebay) and cut it up to fit the crate.

During the night, Ive always had problems with pups chewing and shredding newspaper which people traditionally put one end of the crate, or under the bedding, so I just put a small plastic dog basket with vet bed in one end of the crate. There is just the plastic tray (that comes with the crate as a base) visible at the other end. The pup can curl up in the basket, if he actually wees IN the bed then the vet bed wont hold the moisture and he will still will be able to move himself out of his basket to wee should he be caught short. Ok so I would have to deal with a plastic tray with wee on it, but Id rather that than eaten newspaper or the pup not being able to move himself away from his sleeping area.

I ought to say that I put my pup out around midnight for a wee, and when they are really small I set my alarm for around 4am. Doesnt take long before they drop the 4am wee stop to get them dry through the night.

Yes, much better to let it lay in its urine.