Gene pool sizes for european pointers Discussions

Hi all, I've been a lurker for some time, and have followed the story of Grey and the other poorly SRHPs with interest. I am hoping to get a pointer of some sort in the next year or so (waiting for a (human!) baby to grow up a bit)
My short list is:

Slovakian rough hair
German wirehair
wirehaired Vizsla
spinone

... There's a theme there I feel!

Anyway - Initially I'd always wanted a spinone until I saw a SRHP (and my wife thinks that they are the nicest looking on my current list!) I am however increasingly concerned about the small size of the gene pool and the number of reports of prolonged stomach problems. My other concern is the number of young dogs that are around from a seemingly limited number of breeders - there don't seem to be many older SRHPs around from whom one can judge ongoing health issues.

Since the spinone has been around for centuries it presumably has a relatively stable gene pool/lake; the GWP being established in the UK for a while should equally be a fairly wide and deep pond compared the the SRHP's gene puddle (!), but what about the vislas? - this is a (relatively) new breed and only recently introduced into the UK. Has sufficient new stock been brought in, and are there enough older dogs around for people to get an idea of how they develop?

I'd welcome feedback from anyone who can help. Whilst obviously I'd love a dog regardless of it's health issues, and would always try to get everything treated, I'd rather get a dog that would stay healthly longer - both for it's sake and the sake of my sons who get very attatched to things and distraught when they get ill/die (the tears when one of the chickens died were enough to float a boat!)

thanks

One other thing I forgot to mention - pudelpointers.

Does anyone know about this breed in the UK? I know that it is used in germany a lot but has it been introduced over here?

I guess I just like, hairy, bearded dogs!

oops - duplicate post

Hello and welcome!

I am getting a Slovak pup next month. Most breeds have their fair share of health problems, but getting a dog from a good breeder means that you are already one step ahead. Getting a pup from health tested stock means that you at least have a reasonable idea of your dogs future health in regard to some genetic health issues (although even that is no guarentee). Getting one from untested stock means you are taking a risk.

I would recommend visiting breeders of all your fav breeds as temperament wise they are really all completely different and i think meeting them will further help you make up your mind

I really like the look of Slovaks too, but I too share your worries and believe that if a gene pool is too tiny to begin with, none of the health tests that are currently available are really going to help that much. People have said before that the gene pool is really small, even in their home country, so I'd probably be trying to find out how true this was, trawling through pedigrees and contacting breeders on the continent to try and build up a picture. I've seen some pedigrees that to me, don't look good, and I'd want proof from breeders that they actually know what they're doing, have a good understanding of population genetics and know where they're going with the SRP as a breed - not just being satisfied that their dogs are looking to standard and have reasonable hip scores at the moment.

I think it's a really important thing to consider, and I really hope there are people in the breed that can put your mind at rest. I wonder if it would be worth contating Jeff Sampson, the Kennel Club's scientific advisor/geneticist? I'm not sure what's happening re: the breed being recognised, but I'm sure he'd be a useful person to speak to if you could get in contact with him.

Hi mister phil,

I've looked into health issues in the breed and the UK stock since getting my dog in the hope I might find some help in dealing with them. He has some problems that I was told initially were down to the breed rather than breeding and that they would right themselves, so I went to look for more info on this in slovakia. I emailed mike urban and got an interesting response back. Slovaks don't it appears as a breed get their teeth late in Slovakia and problems as severe as my dog's don't right themselves. It's simply a case of a bite fault showing up.

I recently had a second opinion from one of the highest qualified canine vets in the UK who said there is nothing more I can do and that in terms of faults like this showing up in what is already a small gene pool that prevention is better than cure and should be addressed now rather than later. Of course if you are buying a puppy you can look ot for teeth when you choose and buy, I didn't know enough to check properly at the time. However, since I know what my dog has gone through and the extra expense and time involved, I would hope that measures are being taken to stop this problem occuring in more dogs as it really is traumatic for a dog to have to have as much treatment as my dog had.

My dog has an overshot jaw and his lower jaw is smaller in size than it should be so the teeth are crowded. The dentist says a similar problem has shown up in GSPs, which obviously have a larger gene pool. He advises measures being taken now in the breed rather than later.

If you look at the pedigrees of the litters available in te UK you can see for yourself if you think there are a broad enough variety of dogs and bitches being used to develop the UK stock.

The health information on the latest breed club newsletter has been written by my dog's breeder. I have written to the breed club to clarify certain details in the information as I think a statement claiming that the list is the total number of known health issues in the breed is inaccurate. I myself have been contacted by more people with conditions in their dogs that are not included on that list and my dog's conditions are also not correctly listed. Having treatment for an overshot jaw at the severity that my dog has is not a simple or quick procedure.

As Ros says there were hardly any about 2 or 3 years ago and then the numbers increased. But I would look at whether there is an over use of a limited amount of breeding stock. Even new kennels when they start up are set up with offspring of the same existing stock. I would also wonder where are the breeders who were first involved in the breed when it first came to the UK. I think some of them are now no longer breeding. So are we really only talking about breeders involved in the breed for the last couple of years? Do we have enough adult dogs around to correctly measure the health assessments talked about?


The health issues I have found are as follows:
- tummy troubles - campylobacter, giardia. More than likely down to contamination from external sources than the breed itself. if unchecked and treated it can be linked to pain issues. My dog's litter mate had diskospondylitis which is an infection between the vertebrae. I was also contacted by a lady with a 2 year old slovak bitch who has had jaw/bite problems and some kind of inflammatory menangitis.
- the bite faults I've heard of: over/undershot, canines puncturing upper pallete, removal of baby canines, in some cases adult canines, wearing of a brace on the teeth, crowded teeth and undersized lower jaw. Once solved some dogs are happy go lucky after and doesn't bother them. My dog is bothered with his muzzle however.
- cross eyed.
- the slovakian response said a poodlepointer that was crossed into my dog's sire's line by a previous breed master had had chest problems and this dog had now been removed from the slovakian lines. Obviously a worry for us.

That said, I'm very proud of my dog in many ways.

I think as you say , the SRHP is a fairly small (numerically ) breed even in its own country.. so the gene pool is not going to be diverse.

Then other breeds you mention are a lot more common... the Spinone , along with the Viszla has taken off in this county in a very short time... and with this invariable comes negatives with breeding.

I can remember when my friends started to show her Vissi, around 7 yrs ish...ago, you would get 6 to a class id you where lucky... compared to today's , some classes you can get 25 plus in a class.... the breed through its popularity has in some ways not done itself any favours.

Same goes for the Spinone... again going back tot hat time, they where few and far on the ground at shows.... again a couple or so to a class, now their numbers are growing to double numbers in a class... again popularity does not always benifit the breed.

In saying that... there are excellent breeders in both (all on your list)
who bred for the betterment of the breed and are very conscious of breed health.

If you are interested in the Vissi, I can put you in the right direction.

The Viszla is a particular healthy dog, they are hip scored, some do suffer skin, and tummy problems but there is one major condition that is not published very well, many breeders will not talk about it , but there is research being done to help and eradicate this problem..

And to be honest, if a breeder is not willing to discuss it with you, find one that is... it is a totally dilapidating disease, that can lead to death,

I have had a friend who lost one to this, so worth you being informed...

Polymyositis


http://vizslamyositis.blogspot.com/


Although rare , one needs to be aware of it, the thoughts are it is hereditary , and certain lines have been effected..

But on the whole they are a good healthy breed, I know many of them and onlt seem one case in over ten yrs...

thanks for all the feedback.

BAsed on what everyone has said, and what I've read elsewhere, I think I'll leave the SRHP this time - maybe when I get my next dog in 15+ years time the gene pool will be a bit mre robust.

That leaves me with spinones, GWPs and WHVs (with cesky fouseks, pudelpointers etc as unfindable but nice dogs for a maybe!)

I'm going to the gundog champoinship show in august to have a look round and see them all in once place - and since the timescale is quite long I'll try to narrow things down a little - depending on the OH's reaction!

Jackbox - any guidance would be appreciated
Ros - I can't pm yet

my email is J(double underscore)D(double underscore)Phillips at hotmail dot com

thanks again

I love the three breeds you listed and looked into them when looking for my next dog. A German Wirehair was top of my list but I could not find a single breeder with pups available this summer. Ditto with the Spinones.

So I guess my point is, make sure you locate a breeder well before you want one to avoid dissapointment.

I'm ahead of you, Labradork - it'll be at least a year before I get a dog, but as you say, the breeds we're considering aren't the most mainstream, and some forward planning is needed!

I still can't even find anyone with a pudelpointer in the uk!

http://www.ukgundogs.org/Breeders/Pudelpointer/pudelpointer.htm

These are the first in the UK according to this...absolutely gorgeous dogs!

If you are not planing on getting one til next yr... and you are interested in the Viszla, I can point you in the direction of a good breeder who plans to have a litter next yr.

If it is the Wire Haired one , you are after, I recommend a good breeder too.

thanks!

I remember seeing the pudelpointer page a litle while ago - they are lovely, aren't they? Sort of like a chocolate covered GWP/SRHP...

If I do end up with a vizsla it'll ne the wirehaired variety - I'm a sucker for beardy dogs, although I do like braccos too.

Oh, me too. Thus I am getting the Slovak.

If I was looking to get a SRHP I'd speak to contacts in slovakia first. And also to people working their dogs that aren't necessarily breeding them. Just to get an unbiased opinion on working ability and temperament in older dogs.

I've no idea how Grey is going to turn out as an adult as we're still working through the teenage period. He has been a real ****** to teach to leadwalk, so not sure how biddable he is when out and about. But then I have no experience of other HPRs which I guess is what the breed description relates to rather than other category of gundog such as a lab which is bred for generations to be by your side.

At a ttouch workshop i attended recently with him, people thought he still had trouble round his muzzle which must be unsettling for him. All the slovaks I met on the funday were nice temperaments, so nothing like the GWPs have a reputation for here in the UK.

There is also a working SRHP club and you could speak to Nick re his opinion.

I could dig out the contact details I had for someone I know who had first started looking for an SRHP and then moved on to researching wirehaired vizzis.

I think this is probably wise and it's the same conclusion I've come to. I'm now getting a HWV instead of a SRHP, I really looked into the HWV before making sure it was for me and it seems it's in pretty good shape considering it's still classed as a rare breed. Many of the kennels are striving to import new blood all the time and they don't appear to be too badly inbred as a result of this.

The Spin is a good choice too, lovely natured dogs, but word to the wise - they can slobber BIG TIME!