I think there may be a good NI breeder!! General Chat

It is because some breeders breed for one feature only that issues have arisen in our dogs. Guide Dogs for the Blind found that when they selected breeding stock based on temperament they lost health then when they selected for health they lost temperament. The dog has to be seen as a whole.
If only the best of the best were bred from then that would have a catastrophic effect on gene pool size and it's not just health we need to preserve but genetic diversity as well. You also have to remember that what one person considers the best may be another persons monstrosity.
As to the question, would I breed from a dog (of either sex) if it had a slightly above average score, well that would depend on the rest of the dog but I wouldn't throw it out with the bath water either.
A dog is not one feature, it isn't a short muzzle, or erect ears, or long coat or a hip score or eye test etc etc, it should be seen as a whole and then an informed decision made and then you match it with a mate which will hopefully improve on that which the other dog needs improving on.
Not one person on this planet has the 'perfect' dog so everyone who breeds will not be breeding from the best, every dog will have it's flaws and failures. If we applied your logic to all faults whether genetical, conformational or structural then no-one would be able to breed at all as all dogs would fail on one point or another!
Becky

its not hard to breed a dog from lower than average hip scores, particularly in the gsd. there are lots and lots of quality dogs with good health test results and temperaments. By breeding from a dog with higher than average hip scores how is that improving the breed? afterall thats what breeding should be about.

The GSD gene pool is HUGE!!! Every need for breeding from excellent stock, and of course, what one will see as a decent dog, others will not. That goes for all breeds.

Do you have evidence that any breeds gene pool is actually HUGE? Just because there are a lot of the breed about does not mean a large gene pool, not by a long shot. The vast majority of breeds actually originated from a very small number of dogs. I'm pretty certain if we traced our breeds back to the very origins (if that is actually possible) then we would find a very limited number of dogs at the beginning.
Becky

Of course they originated from a small number of dogs, ALL breeds did!!!

GSD's are imported now from all over the world, look at the databases worldwide its massive!

Thank you for your advice, I hope you are right! I'm off to try the labrador section

Perhaps this will put things into some perspective:

Ref the GSD as that is where this thread seems to have gone. I know of one GSD, who was bought for, approx £350, KC reg, no health tests at all. The breeder breeds approx 8-10 different breeds, which are said to be health tested. I got the impression that the GSDs were infact their guard dogs and they had the odd litter from them. When question ref the hips, the breeder said that they where from healthy parents and they didn't need to hip score.

Then there is a young female where I work, she paid about £550 for her GSD, she cannot even walk him, he is less than a year old, he has an as of yet undiagnosed health issue (elbowor hip or shoulder not sure, he is under the vet). She says that she thinks the breeder lied about this dog parentage...he is KC reg also. What I am saying is, these are serious things, of course it doesn't just happen in the GSD world, it happens in all breeds. To me it highlights the evil of people breeding soley for financial gain.

I don't agree with breeding from a dog, male or female with higher than average hips.

I have 2 leo's as most people know, the average for leos is 12, the breed club states no more than 25 or a score of 10:15 is suitable to be considered as breeding stock.

Whilst my lad falls within the range my girl doesn't.
I got her scored at 1 yr old, her results came back as 13:15 total of 28, without any accidentail matings taking place within the 1st year.

She was spayed soon after, some members will remember this event, now i could have simply thought tobys scores will even out hollys and breed or find a suitable stud.

But the facts remain the same she was not suitable due to her own scores regardless of the stud.

Why people choose to turn a blind eye to the facts and breed regardless is beyond me.

At the end of the day a good breeder takes full responsibility for all the pups throughout their lives, could you live with the fact you have produced even a single pup with hip problems suffering some level of pain for the rest of its life?

I know I couldn't.

Good post xx

Thankyou, I just wish people could be happy with the dogs they own faults and all.
I know hips aren't the only thing to be considered before breeding, but as great holly is in her nature and conformation of the breed standards, her hips don't come up to scratch and as her owner i have accepted this fact.
She will always be my moo, and besides the results make me aware of possible problems as she gets older.

Your attitude is commendable xxx Very sensible and well balanced view point xxxxxx Completely unselfish, you are putting the potential welfare of the breed first. I think you are ace and if every breeder thought like you, the dog world would certainly be a better place xxxx

Your'll make me blush, lets be honest here there are plenty of dogs needing homes and the chance of a happy home without poor breeding practices adding to them.

I hold this view because of my past experiences of bad breeders and the impact not only on the pup also the heartache for the owner, and as the owner of a dog who had heditary problems due to lack of testing or just not caring about the pups.

Watched her heart problem take hold of her until her heartbreaking death.

I simply couldn't do it, knowing it was due to me turning the blind eye or masking the truth because i didn't want to acknowledge the facts and the impact on any 1 of the pups or owners i brought into this world.

My point exactly, means the gene pool isn't huge and a quick look at GSD history and it clearly states that they were heavily inbred in the beginning. Hence, due to the small number of originating dogs most of any breed share the same genes within that breed and therefore do not have a large gene pool even with large numbers of the breed being present. Hence, all dogs will have something to give to the breed but it needs to be made on an informed basis taking into account all aspects of the dog and it's pedigree.
Becky

there are plenty of gsds with good health test results. there is no need to breed from a dog with a higher hip score, absolutely no reason except someone being greedy.

I can understand maybe slightly if it was a breed with small numbers that NEEDED to be bred in the interests of the breed- but then it should be only slightly over in exceptional circumstances.

I am talking about this specific breeder breeding from higher than average hip score...what is the need for it? And if she can do it with one breed she will do it with another...

Well maybe she is of the same opinion as me? It isn't just a simple matter of finding good stock. These days breeders are reluctant to lift endorsements no matter how good the test results are. Stud dog owners placing conditions on stud terms meaning that none of the dogs can be bred from. How exactly can people get good quality stock to produce their own line when those dogs simply aren't available to people?
Yes you can build up a relationship with a breeder but I've heard time and again where these relationships have turned sour and they have then refused to lift endorsements or sign stud papers on co-owned dogs because they have fallen out with the other co-owner.
Life isn't that simple.
Becky

I dont agree, however in "this" case, I dont think breeding long coats and unrecognised colours will do anything at all to "improve" a breed even with perfect hip scores! My opinion only of course.

What a lovely, honest post.

well its a good job other people dont entirely share your opinion.
slating long coats and colours is a very tired old attack isnt it?how exactly do those two things impact health?are you really one of those rather sad misguided people who think long coats and colours never came up in any standard parent litters,or one who agrees with culling them because 'they dont improve the breed'?some breed for one thing some another but as long as there are people who want to provide good loving homes does it really matter about colour and coat length as long as the parents are healthy?who are you exactly to decide whos dogs are healthy and whos not based on the length of coat and colour?
i have a wonderful longcoated bitch and wouldnt swap her for any other