"Working"English Springer Spaniels Discussions

You can show a docked dog with K.C. permission, you just send them the vet certificate. Can't show at any show where public pay to enter, but this is pretty much just Crufts now. I show a working type, docked clumber puppy and he won BP at Coventry. Apparently the write up is online at Our Dogs and his breeder is very pleased. Can't wait til tomorrow when I can read it!!

No idea at all as have never given it much thought until now, I was speaking hypothetically. His nose doesn't leave the floor but at the moment all he wants to do is chase birds!

On the flip side what if he is good and is still pretty? ;o)

Seriously though I am not a lover of the whole working only/show only thing in Springers. I think some can, some can't (in either sense). I don't agree in saying only workers can work and shows can show.

Neither was i, but its a joy watching them work, they love it, and contary to popular believe, its not a massacre, 400 shots off and just 60 birds on average, i think the birds are winning somehow

Nobody is saying that either can't do either if that makes sense, but as its been said an out and out working strain springer can't compete with the show dogs in the ring, cos its not about pretty its about meeting a standard

And you've missed the point completely!

The breed standard was brought about and then the breed split, not the other way around......

The breed standard was created for the whole dog, show dog and gundog. The dogs you see in the show ring have morphed into flashy dogs to win more shows and the working types have morphed into relatively small, snipey dogs to enable them to win field trials......that's the point!

A Springer bred to the breed standard can quite easily work in the field if both qualities are required. A Springer bred purely for working ability will struggle to do the same thing because they are much further removed from the original dog.

Highest on leg and raciest in build of all British land Spaniels. This was written in the breed standard before the ESS split as a breed, remember?! The standard was written in the early 1900's, the breed split in the mid 1900's....

If the working type was present and seen as the correct type in the 1900's then the breed standard would reflect this, it doesn't.

Show types can easily compete in the field. I know many, many show kennels that work their dogs regularly on shoots. This is what the ESS was designed for remember, not for field trials as many of the working ESS have developed to perform in. The small snipey ESS has come about purely as a result of the emergence of field trials, these trials have driven people to produce a dog which is faster, flashier (in a working sense) and hunting obsessed. A strong desire to hunt is fair enough, but to hunt for the sake of hunting is not a quilty I admire in a Springer. It is after all a complete waste of energy (again this quality has been bred for for those wanting to win field trials as it will get you more points). A dogs sense of smell is good enough to detect game which it can then flush, the need to hunt relentlessly with our without the presence of game is a false ecomomy imo.

You do not need these qualities in a true working gundog (not field trial gundog) that is to be used for rough/general shooting. You certainly don't need it for springer game for the net, which after all, is what the ESS was originally developed for.

If you look at show ESS on the continent you can see how successful a gundog the show ESS could be in this country, if only a working qualification was mandatory for that all important champion title to some show'ers.

My dog is bred to the breed standard, is 19" at the shoulder and weighs approx 18kgs and yet is perfectly capable of springing game.

This to me says it all. You'll just have to accept that while the show type ESS is perfectly capable at performing both tasks, the working type can only manage the working side of the breed.

Did I mention Isla's Sire is a full french Champion which proves he fits the breed standard and can win field trials????? ;-)

& in the BCs!!!! We are not alone!

Great, you've got me singing a Michael Jackson song now!

yes you've several times that he is a full french champion, but could he cut it here.............. sorry will but out and take my cheeky little working Mutants with me no they'll never make show dogs, but then again they couldn't cope with being inside at a show all day, sat on benches and standing and being pawed, they'd much rather be out in the field, flushing phessies, fetching em back, rolling in mud and jumping in the water and having a great old time.

ETA to do a full days work you do need that mad desire to hunt, they would never keep up otherwise, 6 drives over 8hrs is a lot of running and a lot of ground to cover for any dog. A good beating dog, will leave no stone unturned and no bush gone through in his quest to put birds up for the guns, and he will do it with minimal input from the handler. I tend to find my whistle is useless on beating days there are far too many going off, not to say that my dogs aren't trained on the whistle they are.

I love the look of the Show dogs, i just struggle with their temperament/energy, i always feel like i want to poke them with a stick to get them to move and do something.

Yes, he lived in this country before moving to France. He worked regularly on shoots in this country and came second in a novice working test I think.....

Isla loves to be outside flushing game too etc, but she can also be entered into shows and win classes. That's my point!

One thing she couldn't cope with is being shut in a kennel 23 hours a day in order to keep her keen for training! She'd much rather be guarding the fridge in the kitchen!

At least we have one thing in common, we both own mutant dogs, be it working or show!

I would love to take him to try something like this as am sure he'd love it but I can't get my head round the whole shooting thing. 60 birds is 60 too many for me. I do LOVE the look of them though when they're out and about they are grinning from ear to ear with happiness.

Was chatting to my friend (owns 2 working types) while we were out with them all on a walk and we both agree that workers make the best pets tooo, provided you give them a similar mental and physical experience (which we do). They are just the happpiest doglets in the world and I love them!!

Hahah, only about 4x now Rips ;o) xx

but Rips you have to accept that your Isla and the few out of many show kennels that work are an exception in showing circles, poor old harv would have died if i'd asked him to work, he'd need a kip between each drive,

Pidge, why do you have a problem with the birds being shot, they wouldn't be there if they hadn't been reared to be shot, and to be fair they have a far better life than many a cow, sheep or pig

How do you know that though? Just because you've had show Springers with no hunting ability doesn't mean they're all automatically like that. Some are some aren't, just like the working types.......

The majority of the show type Springers that go over to the continent end up working as gundogs, because they get the chance they don't get over here......

The working type and show type are very different, I'm well aware of that. What I can't understand is the train of thought that the working type is the correct type purely because the need to have the working instinct is required more in the working type than in the show type. The breed standard was brought about before the breed split, therefore the conformation of the show type is correct as the breed was meant to be when the standard was first formed (by this I mean structure).

I'm willing to admit the show types have faults (too much hair etc), but at the same time the working types have faults (don't conform to the breed standard).

As much as people would like to make out the breed standard is irrelevant, it's important to remember that without a blueprint for a breed (be it the breed standard or prior) the breed wouldn't exist. The breed standard came about from lovers of the breed way back when. They put down on paper how they felt the dog should look, the ESS standard has barely changed since then, so this blueprint still stands.

Without a blueprint for a breed, all you'd have is a mutt that has an excellent nose for game and a fantastic retrieving instinct.......


Oh and I don't have to accept anything. I will continue to exercise my freedom of expression in a free country, however.

and this is where we fall out, because i won't accept that i have mutts with good noses, just because they don't conform to some standard that was brought in, purely to judge them against in a show ring. I find that very insulting to me, my dogs, and the working dog breeders out there, who do health screen etc and do sell to responsible homes, and have worked hard to get what they want out of their kennels.

FWIW I don't think the working type is the correct type, for the show ring i think that its a diiferent type and the sooner that we accept that they are never going to go back to being the original breed standard, and recognise this the better..

Just out of interest Meg is 19inch at the shoulder and weighs 19.5kg according to the breed standard she'd fit



Invitation for you Rips, i see you are in North Yorks, the season will soon be here again, so prove to me that the show dogs can do a full day in the field, come for a days beating with us. I have never seen a show dog work, and thats just my experience, you say they are there, but not round here,

Gorgeous looking dog Lizzy, real stunner!

Read my post again......

I never said your dogs were mutts with good noses, what I said was without a breed standard Springers and all other gundogs would become mutts with good noses!

That's the point of a breed standard, it tells you how the dog should look. As the breed standard was written before the breed split then it stands to reason that the show type (when bred to the correct breed standard, none of this blood hound eyes, excessive hair etc) is closer to what the original ESS should be than the working type. It's how the breed should look, so when you have a show type that has the ability to work then you have the whole package.

I've never thought of the working types as a second to the show type, they have their place otherwise they wouldn't exist, but what I can't abide by is when people honestly believe that the working type is the correct, original type - it isn't. The working type has evolved away from the original ESS breed standard that was developed in the early 1900's.

I have to say though, I've been looking into the future and hoping to use a working type stud dog at some point, not only to widen the gene pool in my breeding but also to maintain the hunting instinct and hopefully breed in a shorter coat (moderate feathering!!!!!!). Trying to find a working ESS breeder that does all the health tests has been nigh on impossible. Of all the kennels I've looked at I've found 2 that health test sufficiently. Some show breeders can be bad, but make no mistake that working breeders are just as bad if not worse.....

Oh but they will, there may only be small pockets of breeders in this country that think like me, but we're here and here to stay. A mandatory qualification in the field for show dogs to gain their title would soon change the appearance of the hairy, bloodhound eyed Springers you see in the ring. It really is that simple, but then such a move would be very unpopular for the majority of show folk wouldn't it?

Great, much closer to the breed standard than most working types. A nice Springer.

For what purpose? I've never said that my ESS can work a full day in the field, all I've ever said is that many show types are perfectly capable.

Isla is nowhere near steady enough for a full day in the field, she's still in training and will be for some time yet due to my working commitments, show commitments and the unfortunate dog attacks that Isla has suffered in this last year. This has left her so afraid of strange dogs she can concentrate on nothing else but her fear at the moment.

I've worked very hard with Isla and I'm not about to ruin it by taking her out on a strange shoot with unfamiliar dogs just so you can pick her apart when she doesn't behave like a working type ESS. It's pretty clear to me that you don't like the show types and can see no part for them to play in the working field, so why on earth would I want to subject my dog and myself to that sort of mindset? I've got nothing to gain from such a venture.

Imagine your reaction if I invited you to bring your working Springers to a show and enter them into a class, then you'll understand where I'm coming from....

You must think I was born yesterday! I think I'll stick to the working gundog people who actually like my show type Springer thanks!

I like Isla, think shes lush! i really like the show lines ears!

no you've got me wrong i like all springers, thats why i work in springer rescue i don't dislike the show dogs at all, i thiink they are lovely, just totally different to what i choose to own, and its a temperament thing not looks or anything else. I wouldn't want to pick Isla apart just curious to see the difference, we had a cav out on our shoot one day last season, thats just the type of shoot it is, we also have goldies, JR and the best beating dog is a Norfolk terrier because she goes under anything.Oh and none of em are at all aggressive.

I know at least half a dozen working guys that do health test, and like i said above i don't think that the working type is the only type, but like you the BIG sad eyed hairy ones that you see at most of the shows just don't do it for me.You hit the nail on the head when you said most of the show dogs had been bred away from the standard and they've done this to win shows, just like the working guys have bred away to get the type of springer they want for their purpose.

and lastly if you invited me to a show i'd give it a go, just to see how the other half live, even though i'm 100% sure we'd make fools of ourselves

Any chance of some photos to compare them? I`m quite drawn to Springers....

see above or this topic

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=96729

Without getting into the politics of it all and my personal opinions:wink: i feel the ESS needs some balance restored too it. We shouldn't have such varying scales of extremes at either end then every type which vaguley fits the ESS bill in between! There SHOULD be a middle of the road dog that suits everyone in all honesty.
Ralph's from a show bred bitch to a field trialling bred dog (though towerbird arrowhead was very untypical of the field types, powerful head and lots of colour_ and to ME he's perfect:wink: But im bias ofcourseeeeeeeee

That's something we can agree on then! I'm not a fan of either extreme, be it working or show type.

All I want to do is bring the ESS back to the dog it was meant to be. I want a dog that fits the breed standard, but can fulfill it's purpose in the working field. Simple you'd think eh?!

I want an ESS that resembles the dog from the 1900's basically, I've got a pic from a book I've had since I was teeny tiny. I'll have to scan it in and post it once the scanner is up and running again!

I'll contine to work on Isla's training (some work in a rabbit pen should get us halfway there) and her dog fear issues (we're making decent progress at the mo, fingers crossed), once I feel she's upto scratch I'd be glad to take you up on your offer.

I've recently resigned from the Northern English Springer Spaniel Society commitee because of my feelings about the extreme show type, I just can't abide by people that take a breed to such extremes all in an effort to win the most trophies.

I'm really hoping that the recent PDE programme has made people realise that the ESS is a GUNDOG first and foremost, Crufts does seem to reflect this, but it's more than likely that it's only a blip.... :-(

Exactly Luke, you hit the nail on the head. A middle of the road Springer isn't all that difficult to create (it's already here, if in fairly small quantities), it's just they don't fit the bill for most Springer folk - most people are either one way or the other - working or show! All I've got to do is join those that share my dream and then convince the world the middle of the road Springer is the best in the world!

And no, I don't tend to do things by halves!