Wolf lookalike breeders Controversial

But it isnt though is it? It may look slightly like a 'natural looking dog' as you put it but it is far from it!! It is a manufactured breed thats aim is to look like a wolf- just like every other breed of dog is bred to look like a breed standard which is 'made up' by humans.

Your totally correct! just like the GSD, which has been totally deformed by the KC, please correct me if I'm wrong?
Personally I think GSD's are beautiful looking dogs in there natural form, infact I would love to have one with a good hip score and no ailments. The most "natural" looking dog would be the Canaan dog. I quote the British Canaan Dog Society ;
"The Canaan Dog was originally "designed" by Mother Nature as being the best structure and type to survice naturally. It therefore seems logical therefore to believe that if all the purebred dogs were to cross-breed you would eventually end up with a dog that looks very similar to the Canaan Dog. Indeed, certain cross-breeds, particularly those within the spitz group, have a remarkable similarity to the Canaan Dog - the wedge shaped head, prick ears, tail over their back and double coat."
This is a very simlar discription to the "wolf type dogs" except the tail over back.
I say again, I love GSD's but I would not have one just for the same reasons I would not have another NI! Health issues.
All dogs are decendents of wolfs, there for it stands to reason that a "wolf looking dog" would be more natural looking than say a Pug or other Doctor Moreau Chimera!

respectfully
WD

Are the KC breeding GSD now????

So are you classing NI as a spitz breed and likening to the Canaan Dog?

Shoshone are selling a pure Saarloos pup for £2500 there having a chuckle surely whats it made of GOLD

...2500 seems a bit high to me...

do you think shoshone has a gun to someone,[metaphorically speaking], saying you must give me £2500.
she is giving someone an opportunity of owning a saarloos at a cost of £2500. it is their choice.
if they want this dog thats the price.same as anything else in life. you may choose to buy a watch from a local market for a tenner, whereas i may choose to buy a watch of similar style but better quality from a shop for £2000.
its a choice. i personally wouldnt pay that much for a dog because i couldnt afford it. but im very glad the choice is there, because one day i may be able to afford it then i know where to go to get a dog.

Or the other choice is go to Europe, pay 1k, then pay 3-3.5k on quarantine... ends up 4-4.5k puppy so it makes 2.5k sound more reasonable.

I think you missed my point regarding making money out of breeding, it wasn't to do with farming dogs, it was to do with making money out of dogs, why is it considered ok to make money out of other animals (not just farm animals) but not dogs?

Thats providing tey will sell to the UK, Im told they wont!

Pet passport costs a lot less too, far better option IMO.

No they are not breeding GSD's, they set the standard or are you really that simple a person you need everything spelling out for you? The KC set the breed standard!

NI are bred from Spitz breeds, Husky, Mal correct me if im wrong????? Read what I quoted about the canaan dog and fill in the gaps!

You're right, apparently due to the crossings they can't.

Yes, it is..but.. how many breeders would keep a pup until it's 10 months old. How many new owners would want to miss the first 8 months of their pups life?

I actually know of a couple of breeders in Europe - not breeders of wolfdogs but KC recognised breeds that will hold a pup until he/she is 10 months and are happy to do it, those are showing and breeding kennels though.

Actually it is the breed clubs that set the standards. But it is all intertwined anyway.

No I am not that simple!!! seems you are.. The BREED CLUBS sort out the standard.. The KC rubber stamp it

But in fairness you DID say..

Which..is wrong.. cos the KC don't breed.. its the breeders who have deformed the breed..its the breeders that are changing the shape of the dogs..NOT the KC or are you that simple you needed it spelt out?

Yeah.. apparently.. except you conveniently forgot about the Pastoral bit..

NI are NOWHERE near a Canaan Dog..and never will be.. NI are a crossbreed of 3 strays mayeb more..with possible sibe, mal, gsd.. THAT makes them a cross of various breeds..it doesn't make them a spitz/northern breed any more than it makes them a working sled dog!!!!

Thats what I was told. Goes for the Saarloos aswell they said. They are horrified and very angry (breeders) at the crossbreeding.

I spoke to a man who wanted to import a Czech, he was told NO WAY!!!!!

I'm really sorry to hear about the ones you know can't be left, I think a lot goes into how much effort the breeders actually put into the litter too, my breeder seperated the pups for short periods to get them used to being alone, short periods was only minutes, just so they knew it was ok to be away from mum and siblings...I was lucky I suppose that my breeder did put a LOT of time into Inkas litter, travelling ,socialisation ,crate ,training, noises ect, I really can't fault anything with the care and attention the pups from that litter got !

Well Ela has been left on her own since she was 9 weeks old and we haven't had a problem. Yes we have had a bit of damage from chewing but nothing that i wouldn't expect from any puppy. She has her kong, treat ball and her fav is a cardboard box stuffed with treats and more boxes that gets destroyed . . . She does have Cassie however which i think makes a big difference to this breed.

Wolfdog

Tell me, what part of this standard, encourages the physical deformation of the gsd.

Taken from the kennel club.

"General Appearance
Slightly long in comparison to height; of powerful, well muscled build with weather-resistant coat. Relation between height, length, position and structure of fore and hindquarters (angulation) producing far-reaching, enduring gait. Clear definition of masculinity and femininity essential, and working ability never sacrificed for mere beauty.

Characteristics
Versatile working dog, balanced and free from exaggeration. Attentive, alert, resilient and tireless with keen scenting ability.

Temperament
Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy.

Head and Skull
Proportionate in size to body, never coarse, too fine or long. Clean cut; fairly broad between ears. Forehead slightly domed; little or no trace of central furrow. Cheeks forming softly rounded curve, never protruding. Skull from ears to bridge of nose tapering gradually and evenly, blending without too pronounced stop into wedge-shaped powerful muzzle. Skull approximately 50 per cent of overall length of head. Width of skull corresponding approximately to length, in males slightly greater, in females slightly less. Muzzle strong, lips firm, clean and closing tightly. Top of muzzle straight, almost parallel to forehead. Short, blunt, weak, pointed, overlong muzzle undesirable.

Eyes
Medium-sized, almond-shaped, never protruding. Dark brown preferred, lighter shade permissible, provided expression good and general harmony of head not destroyed. Expression lively, intelligent and self-assured.

Ears
Medium-sized, firm in texture, broad at base, set high, carried erect, almost parallel, never pulled inwards or tipped, tapering to a point, open at front. Never hanging. Folding back during movement permissible.

Mouth
Jaws strongly developed. With a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws. Teeth healthy and strong. Full dentition desirable.

Neck
Fairly long, strong, with well developed muscles, free from throatiness. Carried at 45 degrees angle to horizontal, raised when excited, lowered at fast trot.

Forequarters
Shoulder blade and upper arms are equal in length, well muscled and firmly attached to the body. Shoulder blades set obliquely (approximately 45 degrees) laid flat to body. Upper arm strong, well muscled, joining shoulder blade at approximately 90 degrees. Seen from all sides, the forearms are straight and, seen from the front, absolutely parallel. Bone oval rather than round. The elbows must turn neither in nor out while standing or moving. Pasterns firm, supple, with a slight forward slope. An over long, weak pastern, which would affect a dog's working ability is to be heavily penalised. Length of foreleg slightly exceeds the depth of chest.

Body
Length measured from point of shoulder to point of buttock, slightly exceeding height at withers. Correct ratio 10 to 9 or 8 and a half. Undersized dogs, stunted growth, high-legged dogs, those too heavy or too light in build, over-loaded fronts, too short overall appearance, any feature detracting from reach or endurance of gait, undesirable. Chest deep (45-48 per cent) of height at shoulder, not too broad, brisket long, well developed. Ribs well formed and long; neither barrel-shaped nor too flat; allowing free movement of elbows when gaiting. Relatively short loin. Belly firm, only slightly drawn up. Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup. The back is firm, strong and well muscled. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be heavily penalised. Croup slightly sloping and without any break in the topline, merges imperceptibly with the set on of the tail. Short, steep or flat croups highly undesirable.

Hindquarters
Overall strong, broad and well muscled, enabling effortless forward propulsion. Upper and lower thigh are approximately of equal length. Hind angulation sufficient if imaginary line dropped from point of buttocks cuts through lower thigh just in front of hock, continuing down slightly in front of hindfeet. Angulations corresponding approximately with front angulation, without over-angulation. See from rear, the hind legs are straight and parallel to each other. The hocks are strong and firm. The rear pasterns are vertical. Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters, weak hocks, cow hocks or sickle hooks, is to be heavily penalised as this reduces firmness and endurance in movement.

Feet
Rounded toes well closed and arched. Pads well cushioned and durable. Nails short, strong and dark in colour.

Tail
Bushy-haired, reaches at least to hock – ideal length reaching to middle of metatarsus. At rest tail hangs in slight sabre-like curve; when moving raised and curve increased, ideally never above level of back. Short, rolled, curled, generally carried badly or stumpy from birth, undesirable.

Gait/Movement
Sequence of step follows diagonal pattern, moving foreleg and opposite hindleg forward simultaneously; hindfoot thrust forward to midpoint of body and having equally long reach with forefeet without any noticeable change in backline. Absolute soundness of movement essential.

Coat
Outer coat consisting of straight, hard, close-lying hair as dense as possible; thick undercoat. Hair on head, ears, front of legs, paws and toes short; on back, longer and thicker; in some males forming slight ruff. Hair longer on back of legs as far down as pasterns and stifles and forming fairly thick trousers on hindquarters. No hard and fast rule for length of hair; mole-type coats undesirable.

Colour
Black or black saddle with tan, or gold to light grey markings. All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables. Nose black. Light markings on chest or very pale colour on inside of legs permissible but undesirable, as are whitish nails, red-tipped tails or wishy-washy faded colours defined as lacking in pigmentation. Blues, livers, albinos, whites (i.e. almost pure white dogs with black noses) and near whites highly undesirable. Undercoat, except in all black dogs, usually grey or fawn. Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work. Final colour of a young dog only ascertained when outer coat has developed.

Size
Ideal height (from withers and just touching elbows): dogs: 63 cms (25 ins); bitches: 58 cms (23 ins). 2.5 cms (1 in) either above or below ideal permissible.

Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.

Note
Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.

Last Updated - January 2009"

This is what I find strange. Crossbreeding of the cwd happens in Europe as well. Cwd have been crossed with timber wolves, and one of the hybrids even competed in an open cwd show, and was placed. Yet I don't see them refusing to cell dogs to these countries.